SKS-FILES FORUM

(http://i89.photobucket.com/albums/k214/kissvids/DSCN2436.jpg)

The single Chinese character is the code name for arsenal location.  DB, DP stamps have no triangle arsenal numbers and would not specify the arsenal without the location name.  These are the translations (they are located mostly in Northeast China where Soviets helped built networks of railway, military industrial complex ...)

旅: 旅順 (Lushun City)
丹: 丹东 (Dandong City)
沈: 沈阳 (ShenYang City)
大: 大连 (Dalian City)
白: 白城 (Baicheng City)
延: 延庆 (Yanqing City)
吉: 吉林 (Jilin City)
哈: 哈尔滨 (Harbin City)

A single character can mean many things; a particular meaning often necessitates a combination of multiple characters .  However, for name of places, it is not uncommon to use the first character as the code name of the place.  Another possibility of using single character is to maintain secrecy since it can mean many things.  However, if one places those stamps together, it becomes clear that those are names of places.

Sums it up very nicely..  Thank you for contributing this information and going out of your way to show your Chinese friends those characters.    clap1

Awesome!

Now if we can nail down what on earth the DB and DP actually mean.

Thanks for the information on the characters....so very cool to make sense out of things.  thumb1

Thanks jliu, a great contribution to the board!

 clap1 clap1 clap1

Great post.  thumb1

This is really wonderful, wish we knew what the DB & DP really meant, but the characters have always been a mystery until now. Thank you for sharing!

Quote from: Worm on March 25, 2015, 01:52:13 PM
This is really wonderful, wish we knew what the DB & DP really meant, but the characters have always been a mystery until now. Thank you for sharing!

Funny if it was Damn Bad and Damn Poor.... It is kind of amazing that these seem to be such low quality builds. My DB is a weirdo, but the DP I have seen in person seemed to be like a rush job too...or working with what they had.  They exhibit late features, but often with cast parts in the mix.  It is a pity there are so few photos online of complete DBs or DPs....

With mine being a cast receiver that does not match what is viewable online, with the vertical pins behind the chamber...I am curious about the general nature of all DB/DP's...

I did a little research and it sounds as if as little as 200 small arms ever were imported from Bangladesh, so it is possible that the data will never show up to get beyond a guess.....It does seem though that China and Bangladesh were not buddies until late 75 to early 76.  I have not been able to discern when any military aid began...but if DB indeed means it was intended for them...and the serials tend to be in the 70's they may have been mothballed B-grade rifles intended for aid, and the DB/DP stamping happened long after actual manufacture.... ???

Still I am intrigued by these weird things....given the opportunity to buy any of the other SKS's on my list...I kinda like these crummy things, and might jump on another before any of my other desires.

Justin,

Bangladesh won independence from Pakistan in 71 & Pakistan has always had tight ties to China. One thing that has been brought up quite often in the past is the DB's, and how they look to be modified from the DP's, or, at least many show obvious signs of it.

Bangladesh did start relations with China in 76', could be possible any extras never delivered to pak were modified and sent over to bang, or were meant to be and came here later on.

All possible..

I'm pretty sure all of these have Norinco Export marks, meaning they didnt come here from Bang or Pak, they came from China, meaning they could have been designated for those two places (or one at first and then the other later) but never made it.

The timeline fits.. the pics from Paki during the forgotten war (71') all show side swivel spikers.. sooo, two things to find is are they all norinco exported? and are they all side swivel spikers?

Also we need to look at all the dates of known specimens.

I did a bit of research when I was gone based on this info that LC had texted me (BTW welcome to the boards jliu123, great to have you here.)

Even today the Chinese will often abbreviate province names to a single character as per this *gag* wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_China#List_of_provincial-level_divisions) page.  License plates in China have the abbreviation and then also use a numerical designator to denote which city in the province the owner of the plate is located in.  It's extremely plausible that the DB and DP guns were all made in the northeast sector of China (Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning provinces) at minor factories and the chinese character identifies which city the factory was located in.  thumb1

The one that sticks out like a sore thumb is Yanqing City (near Beijing), as it's a bit of an outlier from the others in the list. 

I am so curious about these guns...

The city designator seems like it makes the most sense...now to determine what DB and DP truly mean for certain.  Since the fonts usually don't seem to match, I suspect these may have been made earlier, and DB and DP were added to designate their intended destination or purpose.  Since they all seem to have Norinco import marks the thought of Bangladesh and Pakistan make less sense, a study into when military aid stopped to either of these countries may help...as it seems unlikely to me that if they were supposed to go there, enough of these would be stockpiled to make it to export to the US.  The serial data seems to indicate they might have been made six years before any military aid to Bangladesh would have even happened....the plot thickens....

I am leaning more towards they were actually intended for domestic use....perhaps an early/alternate security forces designation?  The amounts imported of those seem to be about as uncommon.  Maybe the region characters represent where they were to be put into service? The DB and DP could be actual factory marks instead of destination/purpose stamps?

The intended purpose might lend insight to why they seem to be so shoddily built. One off fabricated various parts...odd parts not normally associated with the SKS.  Could they have been intended for training purposes only maybe?

I also harbor a suspicion that these may be the result of student/apprentice builds...which might explain the oddball parts...and the workmanship. Perhaps the city/region designators were to indicate they were made at armorers schools in those places?  Could they be experimental runs of various alternate parts to decrease cost/manufacturing time?  With China being a place of mass production, the low numbers of these could be explained as student builds, using outdated/worn equipment...which might explain the rough machining on the barrels. 

It seems so strange to me that the quality seems so 'last ditch' when these obviously were made long after they had already 'perfected' the manufacture of the SKS.

There is also the possibility that they just used anything and everything as far as equipment for machining parts in whatever way they could...but since the numbers of SKS's imported are so massive, it seems odd to me that they would go to that extreme to make as many as they could, no matter what the quality was....when they obviously had massive amounts stockpiled anyway.

Perhaps we will never know...but I figgered I would put those bugs in your ear.  :)

Your forgetting that many rifles intended for aid export never made the trip and were later imported to the US. The new condition Norinco marked middle east guns are a prime example. We also have observed early m21 rifles import marked when they had been thought to be only bring-backs. The late m21 can also fit into this scenario.

Also, many of the DB guns show signs of being altered from a DP in that lower loop was added to the P making it a B.  This means that many left over Pakistan (DP) guns could very well have been sent to Bangladesh (DB) several years after the guns were actually made.

On a side note...

I was told by the leading chinese weaponry expert Mr. Bin Shih that e looked at the chines sks guide and noticed the lack of DP/DB allocation to Pakistan and Bangladesh. He seemed to be under the impression as it was common knowledge to him although he didnt go into much detail as far as proof. 


(http://i.imgur.com/cCiyw.jpg)

(https://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/34-jpg.jpeg?w=700)

(http://publicradio1.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/newscut/files/legacy/content_images/faast_1.jpg)

DP to DB

(http://yooperj.com/31page/DBchina-31.jpg)

I wonder if any of the factors I mentioned contribute to the build quality?

If they are just giving away freebies, so pay less attention to detail, and use whatever they had on hand?  It would be interesting to find out if these were originally manufactured as aid to Vietnam late in the war, and then were stamped later when shipped elsewhere as aid.  The time frame could allow for it, and could explain why the letters and numbers seem so different in appearance...perhaps they just repurposed already manufactured aid?

Just throwin' some ideas out there...

Wouldn't it be funny if in fifty years there is some country that imported all the Hi-Points once they take away our guns someone dedicates a website to the research of their nuances and varieties.... chuckles1

Nam guns were Jianshe 26/296 factory only as it was the ONLY facility producing the sks in China before they diversified and split it up throughout the country circa 1968.  All DP and DB guns date from 1970+ and there has never been anything of the sort as a documented bring back. In addition, I believe the latest date /26\ from nam is a 13m 1968.

The lower quality seems to be more related to the small size of the location assembling them. Looking at the high numbers after the year designation in each serial, these are very low production facilities...

RM has more details on this.......

Quote from: running-man on April 05, 2015, 03:44:35 PM
I did a bit of research when I was gone based on this info that LC had texted me (BTW welcome to the boards jliu123, great to have you here.)

Even today the Chinese will often abbreviate province names to a single character as per this *gag* wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provinces_of_China#List_of_provincial-level_divisions) page.  License plates in China have the abbreviation and then also use a numerical designator to denote which city in the province the owner of the plate is located in.  It's extremely plausible that the DB and DP guns were all made in the northeast sector of China (Heilongjiang, Jilin, and Liaoning provinces) at minor factories and the chinese character identifies which city the factory was located in.  thumb1

The one that sticks out like a sore thumb is Yanqing City (near Beijing), as it's a bit of an outlier from the others in the list.

I did asked about this city again and the suggestion was:

延:延吉市 (Yanji City).  Similar to Dandong city, it is a North Eastern city bordering North Korea with mostly ethnic Korean residents.

So ...  do I need to change this one from Yanqing to Yanji?


(https://clone.sks-files.com/Themes/1080/images/watered8-2.jpg)

Quote from: jliu123 on April 10, 2015, 10:17:24 AM
I did asked about this city again and the suggestion was:

延:延吉市 (Yanji City).  Similar to Dandong city, it is a North Eastern city bordering North Korea with mostly ethnic Korean residents.

Great stuff Jliu123!  I think that this is a much more plausible translation than Yanqing City. The location of Yanji city in the far east of Jilin province would put all these cities in a nice group.  The cities of Yanji, Dalian, and Baicheng form an approximate 1000 km x 1000 km triangle that encompasses all the rest of the cities in the list, with Shenyang, arguably the biggest/most important right smack in the middle.   thumb1

Ill have to update it when I get the chance...prolly next time I'm home.

Here's one I'm not certain of:

(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/25000576_receiver.jpg~original)

Kind of looks like a "K" with two extra lines.  Maybe the character 长 "Zhǎng"?

I see that Changchun is 长春 in simplified Chinese.  First major state owned Chinese auto works started there in the early 50's with Soviet assistance… Interesting. 

I'm getting more and more convinced that Jliu123 has it right!  thumb1

Oh for pete sakes.......   lol

Verify the city for this on and I'll add it.   Is that the city?  Changchun?

Quote from: running-man on April 10, 2015, 11:39:51 AM
Here's one I'm not certain of:

(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/25000576_receiver.jpg~original)

Kind of looks like a "K" with two extra lines.  Maybe the character 长 "Zhǎng"?

I see that Changchun is 长春 in simplified Chinese.  First major state owned Chinese auto works started there in the early 50's with Soviet assistance… Interesting. 

I'm getting more and more convinced that Jliu123 has it right!  thumb1

I'd agree that 长：长春 (Changchun city).

Okey dokey

 cry1

God I am kicking myself for not pursuing that DP I spotted last summer...

All this new info is so cool to decipher the mystery of the Chinese SKS... thumb1

At least you get to see them.  The hunt for you is easier haha.

So was on the outskirts of my LGS prowling radius and located a DP. It was right at closing so I wont be picking it up till monday. The price was right and its all matching with all its goodies intact so I pulled the trigger on my 1st of the DP/DB's  :)

Its marked DP  25,000,062  ( can't remember the chinese characters off the top of my head)

Import stamp IIRC.....    Made by Norinco 7.62x39  SPORTER
                                     B-WEST     Made in China

Nothing "sporter" about it, just normal config. with bayo lug intact.

As Justin has noticed as well , most of the DB's and DP's I have seen in the wild are of rough quality. This 1 however has late features but seems to be of higher quality. Tagging this as a reminder to post some pics here for any1 keeping track of these. I have a tendancy to get side tracked when it comes to posting pics, so any 1 interested feel free to bug me till I do  rofl

The sporter thing was just a nomenclature attempt by some importers at making the SKS easier to import. Obviously those particular guns have nothing to do with the actual Sporter model SKS :)

Cool...  We seem to be finding new characters on these guns decently. You may wanna post it up and/or compare the character to the ones we have on file. 

Quote from: armedhippie on July 10, 2015, 09:30:53 PM

Its marked DP  25,000,062  ( can't remember the chinese characters off the top of my head)

Import stamp IIRC.....    Made by Norinco 7.62x39  SPORTER
                                     B-WEST     Made in China

Awesome Hippie!  thumb1

Based on what we've collected so far, I'd suspect it's most likely to be a 长 (Changchun):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/25000576_receiver.jpg~original) 

or if not, it's one that we haven't observed in the 25,000,000 range.  The 白 (Baicheng) have 2,500,000 number, so I don't think it's that one:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/2500683_receiver.jpg~original)

They're not actually open on monday but are gonna open up for me to pick it up since they are 50 mins away. I'll snag a pic of the s/n and import stamp 1st thing and post here.

Its deff a 25 mill and it may end in 620 if not 062 like I remember. I do remember the DP was in very large font and very close to the 25 s/n...so not much room for many chinese characters.

This post is great and has got me chomping at the bit to pick it up. Great work fellas  thumb1

There's a DB at 1 of my favorite LGS's and I've wrote down its s/n but if I haven't got the chinese characters... I'll get a pic of it next time I'm there.  His prices on SKS's are reaching insane these days, so it want be coming home with me anytime soon  :o

If you can get a rubbing of the serial or maybe even just the Chinese characters on the DB or perhaps a photo, that would be great.  It would be interesting whether it has that ribbed barrel/rough machining too.  I can imagine they might be touchy about serial photos, but if you explain you are trying to contribute to a research project on SKS's perhaps they will allow it....pics of potential cast parts would be purty neat too. It works for me every time...although, I just end up buying them, but when I explain the bigger picture...they seem to be a little nicer about pictures whilst I gawk. :)

Otherwise, since your LGS is being sooooo nice and opening for you on Monday....Pics by Monday evening!  bat1

Congrats on the new addition to the family, it will be nice to see pics of one of the more refined DP's

They've been letting me dig behind the counters for years now so pics shouldn't be a problem.  thumb1 They let me write down the s/n of every SKS they had in the store 1 day and are used to hearing the click, clank of me taking them apart and even laugh about it.  rofl . I remember the DB fairly well as many times as I've handled it...cast RSB, cast Gas block and the ribbed/rough machined barrel. I think it even has a cast FSB but I'll have to look again for that.

The LGS that's opening up for me monday has put up with me coming in for 2 years now asking if they have any SKS's or SKS parts. So their all about getting me the 1st 1 they've had on the rack in that time I believe.

Nice that you seem to have a couple of wingnut gun nerd friendly shops to work with...I often think the rest of the world is like Montana, and generally cool with most gun stuff. When I visit elsewhere, I realize just how touchy things like that can be.


That is how I learnt myself about the quality of DB and DP's....the gas tubes and all connecting parts related seem to be particularly suspect to ill fitting....

I have purchased two SKS's out of the guilt of doing silly things that I definately know better about...I skated a receiver cover across a glass display case...as I don't store unloaded guns, I kinda skipped the closing of the bolt thing before you release the receiver cover.  DOH!




All goofyness aside, if you could get that DB's Chinese characters, perhaps another city arsenal could be added, the more we look at these goofballs...the more information is gleaned. :)

A lil late for natural light but got a few pics. RM it is the same 4 chinese characters as the other 25 mill pic you have. Hopefully will have time for better pics soon. I have just got in so haven't had a chance for a full break down yet but yall just ask for what pics yall would like to see. Haven't but the bayo on right side up yet ( 50/50 they are allways upside down  ::) )

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20011_zpsjtyamtil.jpg)

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20012_zpsbonog2dj.jpg)

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20013_zpsoieo22ip.jpg)

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20014_zpshgsr4t6c.jpg)

not cast but the roughest milled piece
(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20008_zpsivx63jr9.jpg)

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20002_zps6bj7mdhv.jpg)

(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20004_zpstzk9qka8.jpg)

Will get a better 1 but for now...
(http://i830.photobucket.com/albums/zz228/armedhippie/DP%20SKS/DP%20SKS%20005_zpstvzrvrif.jpg)

These are a lil rough but I'll replace when I get a chance for better pics. So far everything matches and most all parts are s/n'd, even the extractor.

That's awesome hippie!

Looks like a Changchun stamp to me.  That is a nice looking gun, the lug is nice and clean.  Not like the 'oh it was a short lug, but let's turn it down with this dull butter knife on this Russian surplus lathe from 1907!'

If you get a chance, please look for any stampings on the underside of the receiver.  thumb1

I haven't seen this set of characters before. Total mixmaster spotted at my LGS.

(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/IMG_2175.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/IMG_2175.jpg.html)

(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/IMG_2176.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/IMG_2176.jpg.html)

(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/IMG_2174.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/IMG_2174.jpg.html)

Didn't get a shot of the whole rifle. Wasn't planning on posting this unpurchased example until I went looking for the particular characters. Perhaps I missed them but just in case they are unique, I thought I'd post it.

Nice...

We have figure out what city this is!

Good catch Phos! Now...is it priced to bring home?  rofl

Whats up with the s/n? 22083, Am I missing something or is this out of the ordinary?

Good shot of the bulbous gasblock. Cast for sure. Makes me wonder what sort of process mine went through to have slick, almost enameled look to it.

22 is the year designator.  1977

Looks like a very low output facility.

Quote from: armedhippie on November 08, 2015, 03:10:15 PM
Good catch Phos! Now...is it priced to bring home?  rofl

Whats up with the s/n? 22083, Am I missing something or is this out of the ordinary?

Good shot of the bulbous gasblock. Cast for sure. Makes me wonder what sort of process mine went through to have slick, almost enameled look to it.

I wasn't tempted at $300 for a completely mixed parentage Chinese SKS (I don't think I saw even two SNs that matched) but perhaps I should reconsider. How do you all rate these DBs, slightly uncommon, uncommon, scarce, rare? I don't see any that have popped up on RM's lists from this year.

I can't give ya a definite answer on rareity but they are few and far between in my area...but so are a lot of the different arsenals.  Once you pick 1 up of course you'll get even more interested in them and personal value will go up ( like the case with me and Justin both).

We really are still learning on the DB and DP. Their a lil all around the board. I jumped on mine at a lil higher price but it is all matching and still had a decent amount of cosmo.

After more data is compiled, We'll have a better lock on numbers of these so.... while I may have started to snub my nose at mismatched....A DB would stand a better chance  thumb1  $300 doesn't sound to bad to me, heck, wheel 'em and deal 'em and see what happens  :))

I'm having a hard time with this one Jon.

Google translate is no help, can't even get close to the Chinese character with which to start my search.  I'm not finding much in the NE quadrant of the country that even looks close.  How much of the stamp above the left side do you think is missing?

Closest I'm finding are Xinzhou 忻州市 or perhaps Tangshan 唐山市 but it's not even close.  I'll need to try again when I have a fresh set of eyes to look.

I sent the op a pm.

Quote from: armedhippie on November 08, 2015, 04:50:19 PM
After more data is compiled, We'll have a better lock on numbers of these so.... while I may have started to snub my nose at mismatched....A DB would stand a better chance  thumb1  $300 doesn't sound to bad to me, heck, wheel 'em and deal 'em and see what happens  :))

Thanks for your enabling...I mean opinion AH  :))

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 08, 2015, 09:02:38 PM
I sent the op a pm.

Cool, hopefully jliu will chime in

To add a bit more to the mix, here are two unknown DB's I have with similar S/Ns (and maybe city stampings, but honestly, I can't tell, that's why they are in the unknown section in my files!  chuckles1)

#1) 2217X, same importer as P32's find, same gas block at P32's as well:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_import_stamp.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_left_center.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_right_whole2.jpg~original)

#2 2844X, I honestly can't tell whether the city code on this one is the same or totally different than P32's find.  Maybe I'll try mixing the missing parts of P32's with the missing parts of this one to see if that brings up a Chinese character that is identifiable:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/28443_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/28443_front_left.jpg~original)

Davidson's seems to have been the importer on a lot of these roughly machined guns...that 0226 project of mine was from Davidson's. It exhibits many of the same DB/DP attributes, I just wish I had more of the original parts to compare. First real project SKS in Projects - Page 1 of 2 (https://clone.sks-files.com/projects/70/first-real-project-sks/1284/)

Another thing I have been considering, since many of these seem to have fairly consistent lackluster machining, Made with a variety of lower grade components.... Could it be that 0226 made them all, and these city stamps could just be identifiers for police/security forces/militias in these particular locations?  Later Security Forces guns were specifically marked for their purpose, possibly it was just done differently earlier on...and at a far less stringent factory with regard to quality control. 

If this were the case, that further throws the meaning of DB/DP into question. I don't get the use of Roman lettering while at the same time still using Chinese. (usually)  The 'Destination (insert nation here)' thing doesn't sit well with me.  Why would an English abbreviation be stamped before Chinese characters? Lets also consider it very unlikely that anyone in Pakistan would be speaking English, and although English is a secondary language in Bangladesh...since one doesn't make sense at all, it seems likely that the other wouldn't be consistent with that train of thought either.

It seems more likely that it was either another instance of a factory using more than one code for the same location, or two factories using four different codes.  If they were indeed foreign aid guns, why didn't they go there?  Why would so many different factories be utilized for such a purpose?

Let it be known that I am grasping at straws here, and these ideas are pure speculation, lest we end up with more widespread wrong information...I bet Destination Bangladesh and Destination Pakistan was someones wild guess, and the internet just ran with it....and look at us now.  :)

I like all the observations and brainstorming....   You guys are the shiznit.  thumb1

Quote from: running-man on July 10, 2015, 11:14:41 PM
Awesome Hippie!  thumb1

Based on what we've collected so far, I'd suspect it's most likely to be a 长 (Changchun):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/25000576_receiver.jpg~original) 

You are absolutely right!

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on November 08, 2015, 01:09:33 PM
I haven't seen this set of characters before. Total mixmaster spotted at my LGS.

(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/IMG_2175.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/IMG_2175.jpg.html)

It's a DB旅: 旅順 (Lushun City)

Quote from: running-man on November 09, 2015, 02:28:14 PM
To add a bit more to the mix, here are two unknown DB's I have with similar S/Ns (and maybe city stampings, but honestly, I can't tell, that's why they are in the unknown section in my files!  chuckles1)

#1) 2217X, same importer as P32's find, same gas block at P32's as well:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_import_stamp.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_left_center.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/22172_right_whole2.jpg~original)

#2 2844X, I honestly can't tell whether the city code on this one is the same or totally different than P32's find.  Maybe I'll try mixing the missing parts of P32's with the missing parts of this one to see if that brings up a Chinese character that is identifiable:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/28443_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/28443_front_left.jpg~original)

The Chinese character on these two is the same: 旅: 旅順 (Lushun City)

Think your right...  Good eye

Quote from: pcke2000 on November 09, 2015, 08:59:58 PM
The Chinese character on these two is the same: 旅: 旅順 (Lushun City)

Thanks  thumb1

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 09, 2015, 09:05:50 PM
Think your right...  Good eye

I am certain I am right, lol

It could be. I'm having a hard time reconciling P32's stamp to that 2844x gun I posted.  The characters have stark differences, if they are the same they are certainly different stamps.  I'll pull my known Lushun stamps to post tomorrow and we can compare multiple stamps (I'll crop them) side by side by side.  thumb1

Quote from: running-man on November 10, 2015, 12:21:42 AM
It could be. I'm having a hard time reconciling P32's stamp to that 2844x gun I posted.  The characters have stark differences, if they are the same they are certainly different stamps.  I'll pull my known Lushun stamps to post tomorrow and we can compare multiple stamps (I'll crop them) side by side by side.  thumb1

you can trust my Chinese reading. They were made with different stamps, but the characters are the same

Quote from: Justin Hell on November 09, 2015, 05:08:49 PM
Another thing I have been considering, since many of these seem to have fairly consistent lackluster machining, Made with a variety of lower grade components.... Could it be that 0226 made them all, and these city stamps could just be identifiers for police/security forces/militias in these particular locations?  Later Security Forces guns were specifically marked for their purpose, possibly it was just done differently earlier on...and at a far less stringent factory with regard to quality control. 

If this were the case, that further throws the meaning of DB/DP into question. I don't get the use of Roman lettering while at the same time still using Chinese. (usually)  The 'Destination (insert nation here)' thing doesn't sit well with me.  Why would an English abbreviation be stamped before Chinese characters? Lets also consider it very unlikely that anyone in Pakistan would be speaking English, and although English is a secondary language in Bangladesh...since one doesn't make sense at all, it seems likely that the other wouldn't be consistent with that train of thought either.

It seems more likely that it was either another instance of a factory using more than one code for the same location, or two factories using four different codes.  If they were indeed foreign aid guns, why didn't they go there?  Why would so many different factories be utilized for such a purpose?

Let it be known that I am grasping at straws here, and these ideas are pure speculation, lest we end up with more widespread wrong information...I bet Destination Bangladesh and Destination Pakistan was someones wild guess, and the internet just ran with it....and look at us now.  :)

Or  :o ,  well lets just play "what if" :)
Let's grasp, only way out there....
So they had Public Security marked rifles, what else along with military show of force and policing of the general population is important to China or a nation period....the monetary system and natural resources,  maybe it's DB---Department of Banking, I'm sure they had many financial institutions, with state owned funds, gold, U.S. i.o.u.'s and debt bonds chuckles1, other valuables, and DP, Department of Petroleum, oil is pure liquid gold, ask the Arabs. Gold needs protection, as I'm sure their early petroleum industry did. 

See I can grasp too.  rofl2   

You need professional help.

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 10, 2015, 02:11:23 PM
You need professional help.

Whatchu talkin bout Willis?
crazyp1 senil1

Naw, but after this, I might say your right thumb1
DP...the DipPoop division,  DB....the DingBat division..  rofl2 chuckles1

Gotta throw a curve ball and throw ya'll off once and a while, ya'll get way too serious sometimes, specially that RM guy  rofl

That RM guy is a jackwagon!  fart1


Now where was I?

Oh yeah, Lushun stamps!

Here are stamps of guns I have in my 'known' folder:

0131XX:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun1.jpg~original) 旅

00460X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun2.jpg~original) 旅

00760X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun3.jpg~original) 旅

01159X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun4.jpg~original) 旅

01499X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun5.jpg~original) 旅

01846X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun6.jpg~original) 旅

02028X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun7.jpg~original) 旅

7210518X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun8.jpg~original) 旅

7210855X:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun9.jpg~original) 旅

7211076X: (DB/[0221] gun)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/lushun10.jpg~original) 旅

Unknown #1, 2208X, Jon's Gun from above:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/unknown1.jpg~original) 旅

Unknown #2, 01265X
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/unknown2.jpg~original) 旅

Unknown #3, 2844X
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/misc/stamps/unknown3.jpg~original) 旅


Now that I have them all up side by side, I can see all of them being Lushun, with Unknown #2 being possibly the farthest outlier.  Definitely different stamps for some of the unknowns though.

What do you think?

these are all the same Chinese character.

Yup...

But what I wanna know is...  Why do the actual stamps have a line going through the n or shape in the lower right corner that is not present on the typed version?

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 10, 2015, 07:37:51 PM
Yup...

But what I wanna know is...  Why do the actual stamps have a line going through the n or shape in the lower right corner that is not present on the typed version?

different writing styles. The stamps are more like actual hand-written characters. It's like Russian letter д , the hand writing is more like English letter D

Gotcha..

You have Chinese background pcke2000?

Can't say I disagree.  So we basically have three distinct series (or at least 2+1 if the 6 digits and 721s are related) that I see:

Five digit S/N, 2XXXX format (unknown amount, at least 80 in the 22 series and 440 in the 28. Possibly 28k if they are truly sequential but I think that's doubtful)
Six digit S/N, 0XXXXX format (at least 20k guns)
721 + Six digit S/N, 7211XXXXX format (at least 11k guns)

New addition......has this series been seen before?
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg.html)

Good lord!     

Yeah....  I think thats a new one with two characters even!  We def have to figure out what this location is etc.   Great eye comrad! 

I think myself....along with a lot of you, have looked at so many rifles, that when something new pops up....our brain's like  "Hey!!! WTH is that??!!!"   :) I'll more pics to follow....   

Def one of those moments.   Lol

RM has alot of luck figuring out these characters...  Given the holidays I'm not sure when he will be online, but I know I'll be trying to pin point it in the meanwhile. 

Again...  Very nice catch!

Funny how far the year designation (23) is stamped away from the rest of the serial.  At least that how it looks to me, and it would fall in line with the timeframe of all the other DPs and DBs. 

That 1 is very different.  :o Is it me...or does the 2nd character look like it was overstamped on a partial number? Don't remember seeing to many chinese characters with that much curve to 'em. The D is odd itself, Its stamped deep not to have at least part of the back of the D.

Interesting find man  thumb1 Can't wait to find out more on this 1.

Even the far left vertical portion of the D looks to have been a broken/chipped stamp.  You can see the some in the middle, but a good 75% of it looks to have broken away from ghe stamp.  All kinds of things going on here...

Edit... AH beat me to it

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 21, 2015, 11:33:58 PM
Funny how far the year designation (23) is stamped away from the rest of the serial.  At least that how it looks to me, and it would fall in line with the timeframe of all the other DPs and DBs.

I thought so too....I am starting to clue into the serial number layouts with these....Definitely looks like it got used at some point....and thanks!

Man... That second character is bizaro.  Looks like 4 legged animal with a beak!    rofl

Maybe its the beer?   

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=529955132
I'll just link it since it's over...more pics....and the goofy butt aftermarket cover

You buy it?

Well heck ya.....:)

From what I can see, looks like all the EP'd numbers only have the last 3 digits, they left off the 0's. The extractor is EP'd as well. Another of the bulbous gas blocks....don't think I've seen a DP or DB that didn't have 1...least since I've been paying attention to 'em.

Do they all have the same groove finished barrel exteriors?

Quote from: padams8888 on December 22, 2015, 12:05:41 AM
Do they all have the same groove finished barrel exteriors?

A lot of them do, but not all. Their kinda all over the place when it comes to fit and finish.

What your seeing is either tool wear, having the travel speed a tad bit fast, or combination of both. 

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 22, 2015, 12:45:12 AM
What your seeing is either tool wear, having the travel speed a tad bit fast, or combination of both.

That seems to happen quite a bit...especially on the Mak-90's....and most of the SKS's that have those unique stamps on the bottom of the receiver...

Anyone notice that there is not a gas tube take down lever?

Since it was shown removed for the photos...I imagine you can get it off...somehow....keeping it on seems like it might be more important.  :o

The more weirdness that comes up with these guns with new locations of 'manufacture', the more I lean towards these being marked for police/militia and the area they work in.

Kind of like an asset tag. 

Unless SKSs were manufactured in little shops strewn about like Stuckey's restaurants at truck stops across China....which, seems more and more impractical to me than these being made at far fewer actual locations, and then haphazardly being stamped by the recipients upon arrival.

Stucky's does still exist doesn't it?  If not, replace that with Flying J. :)

My DB has the typical gas block, whereas my 0226 has the bulbous one.... This one also seems to have a milled rear sight rather than the somewhat typical cast RSB.   These things are all over the map component wise.

Neat gun regardless....and it adds to the mystery.

Oh wow...  I missed that.  Padam, if you can get a replacement lever, I can walk you through the replacement. 

Yup... All over the map.

The flying hook got rid of their own restaurants anymore... All replaced with Denny's, steak& shakes, and Iron skillets.   :)

Yeah, it was mentioned in the auction about it being missing (take down lever) and luckily I have changed them before.....ball hearing worked great to flare....😁

I bought this one on GB, still waiting for it to arrive.  These are odd ducks.   

(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq185/applegoomp/pix268973021_zpsckqjlxcd.jpg)

Dangggg........4 of em'!  That one looks nice!

Quote from: padams8888 on December 21, 2015, 10:38:59 PM
New addition......has this series been seen before?
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg.html)

Can you provide a more clear picture please? I can read the first character, but not the second one. Thanks

Quote from: pcke2000 on December 22, 2015, 05:11:44 PM

Quote from: padams8888 on December 21, 2015, 10:38:59 PM
New addition......has this series been seen before?
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg.html)

Can you provide a more clear picture please? I can read the first character, but not the second one. Thanks

As soon as it's in my hot little hands.....I'll shoot different pics of it and get them posted.....definitely.

Quote from: applegoomp on December 22, 2015, 04:02:40 PM
I bought this one on GB, still waiting for it to arrive.  These are odd ducks.   

(http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/qq185/applegoomp/pix268973021_zpsckqjlxcd.jpg)

This ome has the normal Jilin City and the type56 characters. 

Quote from: padams8888 on December 22, 2015, 05:18:21 PM
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/IMG_7757_zps77a2amzf.jpg)[/URL]

As soon as it's in my hot little hands.....I'll shoot different pics of it and get them posted.....definitely.

I think this one might turn out to be a Tonghua gun from Jilin province: 通


That second character is all over the place. I almost want to say it started as a '2' and was scrubbed and then something stamped over the top of it.  If pcke can't make it out, there's no way I'd be able to make heads or tails out of it.  Clearer photos are sure to help, definitely a neat DP there Pat! whistle12

Quote from: running-man on December 26, 2015, 04:52:47 PM

I think this one might turn out to be a Tonghua gun from Jilin province: 通


That second character is all over the place. I almost want to say it started as a '2' and was scrubbed and then something stamped over the top of it.  If pcke can't make it out, there's no way I'd be able to make heads or tails out of it.  Clearer photos are sure to help, definitely a neat DP there Pat! whistle12

It is indeed the Chinese character 通, however I can't figure out what the 2nd character is based on the posted picture, especially the spot was double-stamped with a number and a character. I am looking forward to more clear pictures too.

Okay....rifle came in today....weirdness! I took just a couple shots for tonight because I gotta run to town for a bit...but here is as close as I can get with my cruddy camera.....I noticed there are no other stamps on the receiver or barrel (like matching numbers) nor alignment tac marks....and no stamps on the underside of the receiver...I'll take a better look later...but this is what I have so far.....Pat
(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03194.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03194.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03196.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03196.jpg.html)

It looks like there are old characters underneath that were stamped over.   :-\

Wow...seeing it up close has me back to scratching my head.  :-\ I was really thinking it was part of a 2....but if it was, It isint the same 2 stamp like the 2 beside it...all wrong. Maybe an older style stamp s/n scrubbed?  Padam said no stamps on the bottom either...IIRC most have something on the bottom and some seem to be dated as well.

Thanks for more pics P8, now lets see that D a lil closer when you get the chance. This 1 is very interesting.  thumb1

The rest of the pics.....there is absolutely zero numbers (other than the last 3 of the serial #) anywhere on this rifle....nothing on the barrel...nothing on the FSB....nothing on the receiver other than the serial # and importer info.....and that quasi triangle thing on the left hand side of the receiver as far fwd as you can go above the barrel pin.....

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03203.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03203.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03211.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03211.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03210.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03210.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03212.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03212.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03213.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03213.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03214.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03214.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03216.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03216.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03217.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03217.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03218.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03218.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03221.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03221.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03224.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03224.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03225.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03225.jpg.html)

(http://i1263.photobucket.com/albums/ii622/padams88881/DSC03232.jpg) (http://s1263.photobucket.com/user/padams88881/media/DSC03232.jpg.html)

Here's a new old one (I'd seen it before, just not in this great of detail)

(https://image.ibb.co/cpKdhm/7210129_arsenal_stamp.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/fZrr2m/7210129_receiver.jpg)

I would call this one 四平市 Siping in Jilin Province.  thumb1

just curious, is it possible that it's 西 ？

Quote from: pcke2000 on November 18, 2017, 05:43:30 AM
just curious, is it possible that it's 西 ？

Looks difficult to rule that out to me, since the top part of the character is missing. What is the translation?

Quote from: pcke2000 on November 18, 2017, 05:43:30 AM
just curious, is it possible that it's 西 ？

Could be, I hadn't seen that one in looking at city names. That would be a realy tall stamp if it was.

The options for 西 are:

Xining 西宁市 in Qinghai
Xi'an 西安市 in Shaanxi
and Xichang 西昌市 in Sichuan.

Of the three, I'd guess it would be Xi'an as Shaanxi a is a well known SKS fabrication location. 

(https://clone.sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/import_stamps/IAIE_SCRA_CA.jpg)

We certainly need another (better) stamp image to narrow it down between 西 and 四

Does this need to be added to the tile list?

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's NONE of those options.

Chinese characters are very specific, and there can be a huge difference in meaning between a slanted line and straight line between two similar characters.

The lower left leg of the stamp is clearly 90 degrees straight to the left. The Chinese are pretty good with stamps. I can't see them making a mistake like that or being too lazy to slant that leg.

Just my opinion.

Probably best to wait until we get a better image of the stamp. 

Quote from: running-man on November 19, 2017, 11:29:45 AM
The options for 西 are:

Xining 西宁市 in Qinghai
Xi'an 西安市 in Shaanxi
and Xichang 西昌市 in Sichuan.

Of the three, I'd guess it would be Xi'an as Shaanxi a is a well known SKS fabrication location. 

(https://clone.sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/import_stamps/IAIE_SCRA_CA.jpg)

We certainly need another (better) stamp image to narrow it down between 西 and 四

very difficult to tell which one the character actually represents (without knowing the arsenal history or the official arsenal codes).

Quote from: Power Surge on November 19, 2017, 04:38:28 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say it's NONE of those options.

Chinese characters are very specific, and there can be a huge difference in meaning between a slanted line and straight line between two similar characters.

The lower left leg of the stamp is clearly 90 degrees straight to the left. The Chinese are pretty good with stamps. I can't see them making a mistake like that or being too lazy to slant that leg.

Just my opinion.

It's common to see different writing styles in actual stamping or writing, which would not cause confusion to native speakers though. For example, if you look carefully at their stamping of '六' and '式' in 'Type 56', you will see the differences.

Quote from: pcke2000 on November 19, 2017, 09:28:54 PM

Quote from: running-man on November 19, 2017, 11:29:45 AM
The options for 西 are:

Xining 西宁市 in Qinghai
Xi'an 西安市 in Shaanxi
and Xichang 西昌市 in Sichuan.

Of the three, I'd guess it would be Xi'an as Shaanxi a is a well known SKS fabrication location. 

(https://clone.sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/import_stamps/IAIE_SCRA_CA.jpg)

We certainly need another (better) stamp image to narrow it down between 西 and 四

very difficult to tell which one the character actually represents (without knowing the arsenal history or the official arsenal codes).

That's the reason for my original guess of Siping as it's the only one I was able to find in the northeast portion of the country. All the others have been found in the NE provinces: Jilin, Heilongjiang, & Liaoning. We haven't seen them sprout up from other areas like Hunan, Siuchan, Chongqing, etc.  dntknw1

Haven't read the whole thread, so I'm just tossing this in more or less blindly. Via Google translator:


(http://preview.ibb.co/kFUJiR/Screenshot_20171119_231419.jpg) (http://ibb.co/medB3R)

Direct translation of the character doesn't really give you much info Boris.  We tried that a long time ago and got nowhere.  For example, 丹 = Dān.  Translates to: "Red, Cinnabar, Pellet, or Powder” and 白 = Bái. Translates to: “White, Showy, Arctic, Blank, Clear, Plain”.  There are tons of different meanings just within those two characters, but the context isn't there for us to identify which translation might be right.  The OP of this thread caused us to look at things from a different angle.  In this case, those Chinese characters don't mean what they literally translate to, they are abbreviations of city names.  In this case, 丹 is the city abbreviation for 丹东市 which is the Chinese name for Dandong and 白 comes from 白城市 which is the Chinese name for Baicheng. 

The Chinese have used similar abbreviations for the various provinces on their license plates since a standard was adopted in 1992 with cities identified by an A thru Z code immediately following.  This abbreviation technique didn't spring up out of nothing, so I think it pretty plausible that a similar abbreviation format for cities/provinces has been used since these type 56's were built all those years ago:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/af/2002_Edition_Vehicle_license_Plate_of_P.R.China.png)

Bingo

Quote from: running-man on November 19, 2017, 10:51:36 PM

Quote from: pcke2000 on November 19, 2017, 09:28:54 PM

Quote from: running-man on November 19, 2017, 11:29:45 AM
The options for 西 are:

Xining 西宁市 in Qinghai
Xi'an 西安市 in Shaanxi
and Xichang 西昌市 in Sichuan.

Of the three, I'd guess it would be Xi'an as Shaanxi a is a well known SKS fabrication location. 

(https://clone.sks-files.com/Pictures/Chinese/import_stamps/IAIE_SCRA_CA.jpg)

We certainly need another (better) stamp image to narrow it down between 西 and 四

very difficult to tell which one the character actually represents (without knowing the arsenal history or the official arsenal codes).

That's the reason for my original guess of Siping as it's the only one I was able to find in the northeast portion of the country. All the others have been found in the NE provinces: Jilin, Heilongjiang, & Liaoning. We haven't seen them sprout up from other areas like Hunan, Siuchan, Chongqing, etc.  dntknw1

I favor Siping as being consistent with the Northeast China region. The fact that it's apparently a partial stamp or unfortunate lighting accident in the photo, makes me reticent to throw out the restriction to the three provinces of Northeast China.

In fact, I've been pondering whether the D in DB or DP stands for Northeast, in other words, Dōngběi in Pinyin. Can't come up with anything reasonable for B or P, unless DB means Dōngběi and DP means something else. It'd probably help a lot if I knew Mandarin  :)) Maybe pcke2000 has some ideas.

In the map below the DB cities are surrounded by green dashes and the DP by red. I made this map before the Siping proposal.

(https://image.ibb.co/ct2YOG/DB_DP_Map_v1.png)

I've mentioned before that I'm not in favor of the Destination Bangladesh or Pakistan hypothesis, with my counter-argument summed up as, why English abbreviations?

I guess I kinda figured the literal translations had already been parsed.

Two questions:

1) Are the DP and DB guns isolated to a specific date range?
I'm not familiar with the method of dating with all of the serials associated with these stamps --i.e. (721)prefixes, and five and six digit serials with 0 or 00 placeholders. etc.

2) Might the DP and DB designations indicate a method of fabrication instead of a distinct arseanal location?

For example-- the various parts and assemblies were manufactured via "farm industry" network, with each distinct part  or assembly manufactured at a different point on the map or within a specific region. The distinct city stamps perhaps possibly indicating assembly locations only, or terminal destination points for shipping/distribution or export. Essentially: there is no specific arsenal stamp because no specific arsenal produced the DP and DB stamped guns.

...just some ideas

One more question:

Are there any known similarities to with the serial stamps on  Chinese commerical products (radios, electronics etc) produced within the same period as the DP and DB guns?

Quote from: Boris Badinov on November 21, 2017, 11:08:41 AM
Two questions:

1) Are the DP and DB guns isolated to a specific date range?
I'm not familiar with the method of dating with all of the serials associated with these stamps --i.e. (721)prefixes, and five and six digit serials with 0 or 00 placeholders. etc.

2) Might the DP and DB designations indicate a method of fabrication instead of a distinct arseanal location?

For example-- the various parts and assemblies were manufactured via "farm industry" network, with each distinct part  or assembly manufactured at a different point on the map or within a specific region. The distinct city stamps perhaps possibly indicating assembly locations only, or terminal destination points for shipping/distribution or export. Essentially: there is no specific arsenal stamp because no specific arsenal produced the DP and DB stamped guns.

...just some ideas

They are good questions and unfortunately I don't have the answers.  We've been able to date a very few DB/DP guns, but most have extremely non-standard S/Ns.  The one we have (tentatively) dated actually has double stamps, with a DB and a [0223] arsenal stamp.  See: https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1314.0 for a fun read.  Maybe we can get padams to re-upload his photos to flesh out that thread...there were really interesting markings on the bottom of that rifle that lent credence to it being a '72 produced gun...

Quote from: Boris Badinov on November 21, 2017, 11:19:42 AM
One more question:

Are there any known similarities to with the serial stamps on  Chinese commerical products (radios, electronics etc) produced within the same period as the DP and DB guns?

No idea on this one.  Interesting thought though.  thumb1

I guess I didn't detail my issues with the DB/DP abbreviations in this thread, so bear with me  geezer1

I don't dispute that China has had arms deals with Pakistan and Bangladesh. China's arms exporting approach seems to be: sell to whoever will buy. Therefore, even though these two South Asian countries have not been on friendly terms before, during or since the horrific 1971 war that broke up predominantly Hindu Bangladesh (formerly East Pakistan) from predominantly Muslim West Pakistan, now simply Pakistan, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that China sold Type 56 SKSs to both countries, even in the early 70's when the wounds were fresh.

My issue is with the widely accepted meaning for DB and DP, and as I understand it, these meanings are what has led to the widely accepted belief that these were supposed to go to Bangladesh and Pakistan, although these of course came to the US from China, not those two countries. If the DB and DP interpretations followed after some other evidence that China specifically exported these SKSs to Bangladesh and Pakistan, then I missed that and would be very interested in that information.

From Google Translate we have:

English: DB, Destination Bangladesh
Chinese: 孟加拉目的地
Pinyin: Mèngjiālā mùdì de
Bengali: গন্তব্য বাংলাদেশ
Bengali transliteration: Gantabya Bānlādēśa

English: DP, Destination Pakistan
Chinese: 目標巴基斯坦
Pinyin: Mùbiāo Bājīsītǎn
Urdu: منزل پاکستان
There is no transliteration available for Urdu but Arabic is: Alwijhat Bakistan

So, what has been widely accepted is that these SKSs have an English abbreviation for arms that were produced by China and supposedly some of which were exported to Bangladesh or Pakistan, where English is not the official language for any of the three parties and the translations in the official languages do not give DB or DP as logical abbreviations.

I know I'm in the minority in questioning the "Destination Pakistan/Bangladesh hypothesis", that's okay  rofl

My alternative hypothesis of D = Dōngběi = Northeast (China), one of their names for these three provinces, is also a bit weak, since I can't explain the meaning of B or P, but I still think it's more likely than the Pakistan/Bangladesh hypothesis.

Okay, that's my two yuan on the subject  ;)

Your completely right Phos.   The Bang/Pak is a big ole wag that I'm not convinced of either. 

As far as the latin use of characters.... Welp, it wouldn't be the first time. 

四 is also Chinese for the number 4.

Could it be a number designation of some sort?

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 21, 2017, 04:36:29 PM
Your completely right Phos.   The Bang/Pak is a big ole wag that I'm not convinced of either. 

As far as the latin use of characters.... Welp, it wouldn't be the first time.

:)) Yeah, I have no problem with the use of the Latin alphabet on Chinese SKSs, just the interpretation of those letters as abbreviations for English words seems odd.

Quote from: Boris Badinov on November 21, 2017, 05:13:22 PM
四 is also Chinese for the number 4.

Could it be a number designation of some sort?

That's interesting. If it is, this would be the first DP gun with a number designator like that.  dntknw1

Occam's razor is what I'd assume which points me towards the 四 / Siping marking. All speculation at this point, we need some nore examples!!!

These were taken from a Bangladesh story a month or so ago.
Zoom and enhance!

(http://preview.ibb.co/dJm8L6/1058357795.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gWfDnm)

(http://preview.ibb.co/ntC4tR/gettyimages_476337094.jpg) (http://ibb.co/i2iAYR)

Quote from: newchi on November 22, 2017, 09:39:33 AM

(http://preview.ibb.co/dJm8L6/1058357795.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gWfDnm)

I think the DP/DB guns are all spike bayos, no?

But the stocks in the 2nd photo are very similar in color to the 2 DP guns I've seen in person.

Yes, all DBs and DPs are spike bayonet SKSs. The issue is not with whether or not Pakistan and/or Bangladesh has SKSs, they clearly did and these pics are great  thumb1

The issue is the long-standing assertion that DB and DP mean Destination Bangladesh and Destination Pakistan, respectively, and that these particular SKSs were produced for those countries, and marked as such, with English abbreviations.

I've doubted the Paki/Bengal connection pretty much since I first read about it- can't remember where., though. Essentially a handful of "I was tolds" or "a guy who was theres " accompanied by no evidence whatsoever.

Not saying it isn't possible, but there's not really anything there (yet) to lend any  weight to the claim.

Worm and I were the first to associate these guns with Bang/Pak.  He was the one who insisted the D stood for "destination" while I never bought into it. 

In our research, we found it VERY possible the guns supplied to these nations from China could in fact be our DP and DB guns and the quantities and times line up.  We know they supplied Pakistan with them prior to the Bangladesh split in 1971. After India stepped in and kicked Paks azz for Bangladesh, they were left with many SKSs. Whe also know China then helped Bangladesh further with small arms aid and later SET THEM UP TO MAKE THE T56 AK47. 

You may read on pooperj site about "Bangladesh made sks information coming soon" hork spit bork bork, but I assure you..... He didn't do his research.  He read somewhere "t56" and assumed the sks, but the reference is to the AK.  Dont hold your breath waiting for his revaluation.

Quote from: Boris Badinov on November 22, 2017, 10:11:31 AM
I think the DP/DB guns are all spike bayos, no?

I believe so, but the explanation may be as simple as all DB/DPs were built after 1966.  I have never seen a T56 built after 1966 that has a blade bayo.  The refurbished-for-commercial-export 88/89/90/91/92 prefixed guns run the gambit of features, but the blade guns very likely started out life as pre '66 T56s.  thumb1

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 22, 2017, 02:24:32 PM
Worm and I were the first to associate these guns with Bang/Pak.  He was the one who insisted the D stood for "destination" while I never bought into it. 

In our research, we found it VERY possible the guns supplied to these nations from China could in fact be our DP and DB guns and the quantities and times line up.  We know they supplied Pakistan with them prior to the Bangladesh split in 1971. After India stepped in and kicked Paks azz for Bangladesh, they were left with many SKSs. Whe also know China then helped Bangladesh further with small arms aid and later SET THEM UP TO MAKE THE T56 AK47. 

You may read on pooperj site about "Bangladesh made sks information coming soon" hork spit bork bork, but I assure you..... He didn't do his research.  He read somewhere "t56" and assumed the sks, but the reference is to the AK.  Dont hold your breath waiting for his revaluation.

This is definitely the most in depth exlanation of a possible Bengal/Pak explanation I've ever come across.

Interesting.

So... this would seem to suggest that -- if the Bengal/Pak connection is correct -- then India would be a likely place to find some stashed, or cached, or maybe still in service.  ?

I now see that blade bayo in the pic.  No telling if they ever received some early guns at some point.  All the 1971 conflict pics are spike only.

Bangladesh bayonet Paks with SKS.  Wonder if these have DP stamped on them.

(http://l450v.alamy.com/450v/a1f49e/the-infamous-bayonetting-of-5-young-men-during-bengal-s-victory-rally-a1f49e.jpg)

(http://www.aljazeera.com/mritems/Images/2011/5/9/201159102013777734_20.jpg)

(https://gnayabchohan.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/wp-1465924035245.jpg)

(https://sohailparwaz.files.wordpress.com/2015/12/1.jpg)

(http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02216/19711218-banglades_2216795k.jpg)

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 22, 2017, 11:39:44 PM
Bangladesh bayonet Paks with SKS.  Wonder if these have DP stamped on them.

ahhh, yes...

DP = Deep Penetrating
DB = Dangerous Bayonet

All those SKSs....wonder if any are DBs?
It's kind of funny that there is one dude with a blade, and everyone else has spikes.  I wonder if that is the Bangladeshi version of the employee of the month parking spot. :)

Those folks without SKSs certainly do not look amused.

Quote from: Boris Badinov on November 23, 2017, 06:36:41 AM

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 22, 2017, 11:39:44 PM
Bangladesh bayonet Paks with SKS.  Wonder if these have DP stamped on them.

ahhh, yes...

DP = Deep Penetrating
DB = Dangerous Bayonet

DB= Deflate Badguy 
DP= Defeat Partisans or Deflate Partisans

Quote from: Justin Hell on November 23, 2017, 12:48:56 PM
All those SKSs....wonder if any are DBs?
It's kind of funny that there is one dude with a blade, and everyone else has spikes.  I wonder if that is the Bangladeshi version of the employee of the month parking spot. :)

Those folks without SKSs certainly do not look amused.

Dude with the blade is the platoon cook...thats the uber rare DB model for cooks.. Detachable Bayonet.  rofl2

Quote from: Greasemonkey on November 23, 2017, 12:57:31 PM

Quote from: Boris Badinov on November 23, 2017, 06:36:41 AM

Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 22, 2017, 11:39:44 PM
Bangladesh bayonet Paks with SKS.  Wonder if these have DP stamped on them.

ahhh, yes...

DP = Deep Penetrating
DB = Dangerous Bayonet

DB= Deflate Badguy 
DP= Defeat Partisans or Deflate Partisans

Quote from: Justin Hell on November 23, 2017, 12:48:56 PM
All those SKSs....wonder if any are DBs?
It's kind of funny that there is one dude with a blade, and everyone else has spikes.  I wonder if that is the Bangladeshi version of the employee of the month parking spot. :)

Those folks without SKSs certainly do not look amused.

Dude with the blade is the platoon cook...thats the uber rare DB model for cooks.. Detachable Bayonet.  rofl2

That is the best interpretation of DB I have heard yet.

Quote from: running-man on November 21, 2017, 11:16:26 PM
Occam's razor is what I'd assume which points me towards the 四 / Siping marking. All speculation at this point, we need some nore examples!!!

Siping?  I see a runner going the whole vertical distance on the left for sure and partially stamped on the right.

(http://image.ibb.co/gsi5q6/DP_Siping.jpg)

Fascinating thread.   I found both a DP and DB marked Type 56 rifles in a gun shop recently.  Price was not too hateful and got a break for buying the pair.   

The DB marked rifle is at top, the DP at the bottom.  Apologies that I am not the best photographer.



(http://oi68.tinypic.com/21340e9.jpg)
(http://oi66.tinypic.com/2qamekl.jpg)
(http://oi65.tinypic.com/21273v7.jpg)
(http://oi63.tinypic.com/2uyrozt.jpg)

Welcome to the boards guy! Beautiful pair of DP/DB carbines you have there.  Both fall right in the S/N range of known guns.

The big brother of your Lushun, made only a few hundred earlier:
(http://preview.ibb.co/dw10qG/008200_receiver.jpg) (http://ibb.co/kWGpjb)

and the Yanji's little sister about 600 later:
(http://preview.ibb.co/gnKmVG/24001153_receiver.jpg) (http://ibb.co/cKzmVG)

Thanks for the welcome and identifying the towns they came from for me.

Welcome, and nice carbines!

There has to be some reason my DB is such an ugly duckling.  Does your DB have a locking lug for the bolt?
Oh, and welcome to the best SKS place there is. :)

"Does your DB have a locking lug for the bolt?"

Yes in fact both of these carbines do.

My DB is an odd one...it does not have the lug, it is just milled into the receiver.  I didn't even notice until RM and LC pointed it out to me....mine is a cast receiver too, which does not display the normal cast receiver features. My crummiest SKS is also one of my most interesting. :)

It almost seems like a kid's high school shop project....and he glossed over that part of the design.  I can't find the pics at the moment, but a DB thread exists here somewhere...with them.  I don't think my photobucket got the neutering yet.  It is a weird weird gun.

Im sure his has one....  Im just curious at to what its made of.  Like Junstins, I wonder if it's just cast receiver material. 

Necro thread but here's a DP I aquired a few months ago.  A Jilin marked DP with a french tickler handguard imported by ACT III Greensboro NC

(https://i.imgur.com/OSAYfO2.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/37ScNh7.jpg)

Stock is not numbered and has a sling swivel on the left side.  Everything else is matching except the magazine.  Bolt, bolt carrier, rear of dustcover, trigger guard all match.
This one is very well made.  Also marked NORINCO/CHINA 7.62x39 left side of rear receiver then the importer's info.

(https://i.imgur.com/0r54t0Z.jpg?2)

(https://i.imgur.com/LrVsMMx.jpg?2)

(https://i.imgur.com/Sh23QJ1.jpg?2)

Not really a necro thread...the research is ongoing into these. 
Very nice example you have there!   I am curious, does the handguard ferrule pin look disturbed or does it seem as if it came from the factory with the FT handguard?

Welcome to the Files BTW!   thumb1

The handguard is very difficult to remove. Looks like it rusted a bit or old cosmoline.  The stock is a replacement so the handguard probably is too but why use a ft replacement?

(https://i.imgur.com/PvHCLHQ.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/XpFf7tC.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/6QgcNkh.jpg)

Very neat. Does the gas tube have an electropencilled number on it?

I would say it's likely the handguard was replaced by someone out of preference. It doesn't look like a factory set pin. The stock may have been replaced at the same time...or possibly before import.  I don't recall seeing a side sling blank replacement before...and the grain on yours is gorgeous.

It's kind of a relief that it seems like a replacement post import, adding another facet to the mystery around DPs and DBs wouldn't help. :)

I thought the stock and handguard might have been a Norinco replcement before being shipped over here.  Perhaps they were just getting rid of rifles for export to the US and had some left over DP guns without stocks?  The metal and build look really good on this DP, not like a project gun.

No, no electro-penned # on the handguard tube

You have a couple of very nice rifles pictured.

Any more sweethearts in the stable?

Not SKS, no.  Just picked up a Norinco pre-ban Type 56 AK underfolder imported by NASI MIDLAND TX , PRC 7.62 NORINCO

Welcome to the board JSSKI! Nice examples of the DB/DP carbines! Thanks for posting them up!

Quote from: JSSKI on March 06, 2019, 02:40:26 PM
Not SKS, no.  Just picked up a Norinco pre-ban Type 56 AK underfolder imported by NASI MIDLAND TX , PRC 7.62 NORINCO

AK? Type 56 AK Underfolder?  drool2 drool2 drool2  I never tire of looking at AK's!  thumb1  (Or SKS'!)  Just post those awesome pics in the AK section: https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?board=30.0 (https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?board=30.0)

firstchoice

AK 56S-1 posted in the AK area

I have a K Sports DP I've had for a few years now, came with serial number matching K-Sports box, never fired, still has cosmoline inside of rifle, one Chinese character stamp on rifle is Tonghua City:


(https://i.ibb.co/vmNgZj9/01.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wCn3Mzt)


(https://i.ibb.co/Jd8Yt87/02.jpg) (https://ibb.co/SxHkyHn)

(https://i.ibb.co/SNZ2g85/03.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKPpTf5)

(https://i.ibb.co/Ycqny6s/04.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k4Wb9pC)

(https://i.ibb.co/c2cyrhv/05.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7rJS1tz)

(https://i.ibb.co/xH7c3dD/06.jpg) (https://ibb.co/L5ZqvH8)

(https://i.ibb.co/fYFqsn0/07.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ynPdrYs)

(https://i.ibb.co/pJbyHWs/08.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TmYLQKn)

(https://i.ibb.co/hmHKWBh/09.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nLfDc7Z)

(https://i.ibb.co/nsxfNh6/10.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8D12LFN)

(https://i.ibb.co/KzpFChn/11.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gFLzs9Y)

(https://i.ibb.co/5xfmwgf/12.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Xkv1Mrv)

(https://i.ibb.co/Gdsw90J/13.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CwJd6zt)

(https://i.ibb.co/8xk6dbj/14.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wQtMw7K)

(https://i.ibb.co/CMwZNj7/15.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yYN1Gzy)

(https://i.ibb.co/PGd6Rxj/16.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5hPRdT4)

(https://i.ibb.co/LYz1xv6/17.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mbC49St)

(https://i.ibb.co/6Ybmyyj/DP-Chinese-Character-II.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NxpsFFc)

(https://i.ibb.co/MCnZj58/Tonghua-City.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9rncf3w)

Beauty!  thumb1

Thanks running-man!

Hey all...first post here.  I signed up here after finding & reading through this thread while trying to research my latest purchase.  I picked this one up last week, and until then I've never seen an SKS without a factory number preceding the serial. 
I believe mine is all original (except for the blade bayo which I'm pretty sure needs to be a spike), numbers matching, and it was still slathered in cosmoline when I picked it up.    Looking at the wear on it, I don't think this one has been shot much at all, if any.  Someone did unfortunately thread the end of the barrel, and the threads are boogered up. 

I am curious to the extended mag release, and the double (ambidextrous) safety levers.  I've never seen these on an SKS, and I haven't heard of them mentioned in my limited DP/DB searching.

Pics are before cleaning.



(https://imgur.com/Dhp2J3u.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/xA1ch6e.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/JwMjSRz.jpg)

(https://imgur.com/5V2Aaae.jpg)

    Welcome 7.62 from Kentucky.  I can't see the pix you posted.  Can't wait though.
    Well since this thread has been resuscitated, that's ANOTHER one I've got to look for :P.

Quote from: Bacarnal on February 11, 2020, 08:20:54 PM
    Welcome 7.62 from Kentucky.  I can't see the pix you posted.  Can't wait though.
    Well since this thread has been resuscitated, that's ANOTHER one I've got to look for :P.

Thanks!

The pictures are copy/pasted from imgur just like I do in the other 8+ forums I'm on.   Let me try to upload:


(https://i.ibb.co/Bn578hh/thumbnail-IMG-1283.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YLRFyy)


(https://i.ibb.co/B3Lq3Ln/thumbnail-IMG-1282.jpg) (https://ibb.co/02qh2qs)



(https://i.ibb.co/cXy43v2/thumbnail-IMG-1284.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CswR8tV)

They came through both times, now. Musta made a wrong toin at Albuquerque wink1.  Nice rifle.  I'll agree that you might want a spike bayonet, though.

Quote from: Bacarnal on February 11, 2020, 11:23:24 PM
They came through both times, now. Musta made a wrong toin at Albuquerque wink1.  Nice rifle.  I'll agree that you might want a spike bayonet, though.

I think it was my fault.  For some reason, imgur is putting "i." before the link here lately, so it reads [img]http://www.i.imgur.com/picture....  [/ img]
I have to remove the "i." after the www and it will show up. 

I don't want to cause a ruckus here but since I had some time on my hands I read through this thread today. It raised at least one question since I went and looked up the simple Chinese version of symbols regarding Provinces and city's. One character stood out that is not in sync with what is posted here and I would be interested to see where one or the other might be misleading me.

The site I used is here> http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/maps/provincestable.html

The Chinese character is >西

If I'm not reading the chart wrong, or there is some other reason, I see this character to mean - XI - as in Jiangxi 江 西, Shaanxi 陕 西 , Shanxi 山 西, or Guangxi Zhuang 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 

Any guidance on my foolhardy attempt at Chinese research would be helpful.

jliu123 who started off this thread knows a number of native Chinese speakers, so our confidence is high on the assignments. I do know Hanzi characters have different meanings depending on how they are juxtaposed but that's about where my knowledge ends. They're definitely hard to translate correctly without a good knowledge of both Mandarin and the Hanzi characters.

I refer you to earlier pages of the current thread and also the related thread below:

https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=993.msg12133#msg12133

Quote from: Randy on February 12, 2020, 08:20:09 PM
I don't want to cause a ruckus here but since I had some time on my hands I read through this thread today. It raised at least one question since I went and looked up the simple Chinese version of symbols regarding Provinces and city's. One character stood out that is not in sync with what is posted here and I would be interested to see where one or the other might be misleading me.

The site I used is here> http://hua.umf.maine.edu/Chinese/maps/provincestable.html

The Chinese character is >西

If I'm not reading the chart wrong, or there is some other reason, I see this character to mean - XI - as in Jiangxi 江 西, Shaanxi 陕 西 , Shanxi 山 西, or Guangxi Zhuang 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 

Any guidance on my foolhardy attempt at Chinese research would be helpful.

For abbreviations of different Provinces, it is actually much simpler and has certain rules. In this specific case, Jiang Xi 江 西 is Gan 赣, Shaan Xi (in PinYin, it's actually Shan Xi) 陕 西 is Shan 陕, Shan Xi 山 西 is Jin 晋, Guang Xi Zhuang Zu Zi Zhi Qu 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 is Gui  桂.

西 alone would not refer to any of the Provinces mentioned above.

However, for small places/facilities/organizations, it could be much more complicated, that's why I still do not fully believe the currently popular definitions of Chinese characters (e.g. 旅，白，吉) on DB/DP labeled Chinese Type 56 rifles.

I see. From what Jliu said 哈: 哈尔滨 is (Harbin City). However, it's my understanding that Chinese symbology is very precise. (I may wrong though), so in considering that precision the first character her in front of the colon interprets as WHAT: So the entire glyph interprets as - what: Harbin.... It doesn't specify that Harbin is a city, town, or whatever they may be called in china. So, just maybe, Harbin is a region? Like a county (or their provinces) with Harbin City within it's boundary's?

The reason I think this is because if these rifles are destined for other country's they really didn't want to give away precise arsenal locations. Therefore, no markings to signify arsenal or location it was built.

However, the bigger picture would possibly prove that theory wrong since battlefield pickups would have the arsenal stamped in them.

Just shootin spitballs at the wall.

Regardless, China has been around much longer than most governments. They've through so many reconstructions only they know can keep track. Which brings me back to them possibly using older out-of-date and out of use symbology for stamping some rifles and not others?

Quote from: Randy on February 16, 2020, 06:13:46 PM
I see. From what Jliu said 哈: 哈尔滨 is (Harbin City). However, it's my understanding that Chinese symbology is very precise. (I may wrong though), so in considering that precision the first character her in front of the colon interprets as WHAT: So the entire glyph interprets as - what: Harbin.... It doesn't specify that Harbin is a city, town, or whatever they may be called in china. So, just maybe, Harbin is a region? Like a county (or their provinces) with Harbin City within it's boundary's?

The reason I think this is because if these rifles are destined for other country's they really didn't want to give away precise arsenal locations. Therefore, no markings to signify arsenal or location it was built.

However, the bigger picture would possibly prove that theory wrong since battlefield pickups would have the arsenal stamped in them.

Just shootin spitballs at the wall.

Regardless, China has been around much longer than most governments. They've through so many reconstructions only they know can keep track. Which brings me back to them possibly using older out-of-date and out of use symbology for stamping some rifles and not others?

No, when referring 哈 to a place in China, it almost always means Harbin City. It's been years and official. Harbin is a city, not a region. (It's not like New York may mean NYC or New York State)

pcke2000, what is your best theory, guess, or otherwise, on the single Chinese character on the DB/DP rifles? They all seem to be associated with a city in northern China but that's as much as can be surmised from the single character. Our assumption that the character is the location of manufacture is just that. Assumption. I'd be very intersted in your opinion and won't hold you to any absolutes.

Also, in your "travels" around the internet forums, have you encountered any other information or theories that could add to ours? All information is useful, whether it's determined to be correct or not. It can help to prove or disprove a theory, especially when it comes from different sources and research efforts. Even the blowhard know-it-alls that get little correct usually have a positive effect on debate. It makes the debate stronger and the research more in depth. So we are definitely open to more opinions and theories.

firstchoice

Quote from: firstchoice on February 16, 2020, 08:39:40 PM
They all seem to be associated with a city in northern China but that's as much as can be surmised from the single character.

Recently I've begun to wonder if the DB/DP carbines are somehow related to Defector policing or border patrol along the North Korean and Soviet borders in the extreme northeast of China.

There are dozen city stamps (11 known and 1 unknown) associated with the DB/DP carbines.
And at least 11 of those twelve cities are located in the three northeastern-most provinces which together comprise the geographical and historical region of Inner-Manchuria: Jilin Province, Liaoning Province, and Heilongjiang Province. My guess would be that the unkown city stamp is in that region as well (maybe inner Mongolia?).
(https://i.ibb.co/cvhCvs0/20200217-101622.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9vHVvd6)


Jilin Province Cities:

Tonghua
ChangChun
Jilin
Yanji
Baicheng
Siping

Liaoning Province Cities:
Dailan
Shenyang
Dandong
Lushun

Heilongjiang Province Cities:
Harbin

Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.
 

TBH, it's been known for a few years that the DB/DB cities are in the northeast of China-- nothing new and not my discovery.

It wasn't until a week ago that I actually looked at them on a map... and the NK and Soviet borders just really stick out...

Quote from: Larry D. on February 17, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.

Google-foo.

More commonly known as Google translate.

Quote from: Randy on February 17, 2020, 06:37:20 PM

Quote from: Larry D. on February 17, 2020, 12:43:32 PM
Good Lord fellas.
I'm still wondering how you're posting in Chinese, Pinyin or otherwise, and now you're speculating about Chinese geography.

I love this place.

You don't get this form of education anywhere else. Seems like other SKS-centric forums are stuck using conventional (even if proven wrong) "information.

Google-foo.

More commonly known as Google translate.

Well, when I've used Google Translate, I get a half-way wierd explanation of the translation. I can usually get the gist of the translation but a lot is left to the imagination and I end up simply guessing the actual definitives. I like to read a lot of research and debate like we have here. Sometimes, as in this case, we still don't know the absolute meaning of the single Chinese character on the DB/DP rifles. But we've learned what the characters represent and possible theories as to what their purpose on the rifle is. Maybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))

firstchoice

Does the DP  city character : 白

refer to

Baicheng 白城市   or   Baishan 白山市  ?

Both are cities in the Jilin Province. Baishan is  very close to the NK border and Baicheng is further north.

(https://i.ibb.co/yhYqbtk/DB-DP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3fMcL2F)

Has this already been discussed?

Quote from: firstchoice on February 18, 2020, 08:14:48 PMMaybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))
firstchoice[/size]

If the DP/DB designation is associated with a specialized authority regime particular to Northeastern China, the designation may be easily reconginzed and identifiable by someone who has lived in the region.  ?

Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 19, 2020, 08:30:15 AM

Quote from: firstchoice on February 18, 2020, 08:14:48 PMMaybe, BIG MAYBE, someday we'll get to ask a former arsenal employee about the question. I'm not holding my breath, though. :))
firstchoice

If the DP/DB designation is associated with a specialized authority regime particular to Northeastern China, the designation may be easily reconginzed and identifiable by someone who has lived in the region. ?

That's my thought, and hope. Someday, maybe someone from that region will be able to put some of the missing pieces together for us.

firstchoice

This sticky on Gunboards is interesting with regard to the Vietnamese SKSs but germane to the topic at hand are posts 28-30 by a former resident of China, xl1997, Lin Xu. The Smithsonian article in which his avocation is discussed (Post 28) mentions his home town as Jilin City. In post 30 he confirms that Type 56s were made there.


https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1085485-Vietnam-No-1-Project-SKS-Factory-in-North-Vietnam

Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 18, 2020, 09:51:18 PM
Does the DP  city character : 白

refer to

Baicheng 白城市   or   Baishan 白山市  ?

Both are cities in the Jilin Province. Baishan is  very close to the NK border and Baicheng is further north.

(https://i.ibb.co/yhYqbtk/DB-DP.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3fMcL2F)

Has this already been discussed?

On the surface, it could be.  But digging deeper, according to wikipedia (I know, I know...but easiest source to look up during lunch) Baishan city was originally named Hunjiang City in March, 1959 and was only named Baishan in 1994.  Baicheng was named in 1938 so that name fits the time period of the '70s DB builds much better.

On a side note, Hunjiang City Chinese characters are 浑江区 which I don't remember seeing on any DP/DB guns.

Quote from: pcke2000 on February 16, 2020, 04:50:02 PM
For abbreviations of different Provinces, it is actually much simpler and has certain rules. In this specific case, Jiang Xi 江 西 is Gan 赣, Shaan Xi (in PinYin, it's actually Shan Xi) 陕 西 is Shan 陕, Shan Xi 山 西 is Jin 晋, Guang Xi Zhuang Zu Zi Zhi Qu 广 西 壮 族 自 治 区 is Gui  桂.

西 alone would not refer to any of the Provinces mentioned above.

However, for small places/facilities/organizations, it could be much more complicated, that's why I still do not fully believe the currently popular definitions of Chinese characters (e.g. 旅，白，吉) on DB/DP labeled Chinese Type 56 rifles.

Pcke, would love to hear your interpretation of the DP/DB characters.  Every one I've found has matched the first character of a city in Heilongjiang, Jilin, or Liaoning provinces, so J Liu's interpretation rang pretty true with me.  If there's a plausible alternative view, I'd love to hear it. 

Quote from: running-man on February 19, 2020, 02:31:27 PM


On the surface, it could be.  But digging deeper, according to wikipedia (I know, I know...but easiest source to look up during lunch) Baishan city was originally named Hunjiang City in March, 1959 and was only named Baishan in 1994.  Baicheng was named in 1938 so that name fits the time period of the '70s DB builds much better.

On a side note, Hunjiang City Chinese characters are 浑江区 which I don't remember seeing on any DP/DB guns.

thumb1

Full disclosure: the wiki page for Baishan was open in my browser when I posted my last query. Apparently, I was too lazy to scroll down to the second paragraph.  thankyou1

Thanks, rm.

This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:

"Coincidentally, D, B, are the leading characters in Pinyin (language writing/reading system used in Mainland China) for Dong (East) Bei (North) which means Northeast or Northeastern in English....
So what about DP? Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1157601-Can-t-identify-my-SKS&p=10349235#post10349235

if you Google "Dong Bei" the first link that shows up is the Wikipedia page for Northeast China. click that link and you it takes you to the wiki page with this map a the top of the page:

(https://i.ibb.co/WPTBq6K/DPDB-donbei.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)

All the provinces in red are where all of the DP/DB cities are located.

(https://i.ibb.co/cvhCvs0/20200217-101622.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9vHVvd6)


Thought it was interesting enough to share.

Quote from: Boris Badinov on June 28, 2020, 12:46:35 PM
This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:

"Coincidentally, D, B, are the leading characters in Pinyin (language writing/reading system used in Mainland China) for Dong (East) Bei (North) which means Northeast or Northeastern in English....
So what about DP? Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1157601-Can-t-identify-my-SKS&p=10349235#post10349235

That does not sound right (in mainland China).

Quote from: pcke2000 on June 28, 2020, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Boris Badinov on June 28, 2020, 12:46:35 PM
This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:

"Coincidentally, D, B, are the leading characters in Pinyin (language writing/reading system used in Mainland China) for Dong (East) Bei (North) which means Northeast or Northeastern in English....
So what about DP? Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"
https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?1157601-Can-t-identify-my-SKS&p=10349235#post10349235

That does not sound right (in mainland China).

What about in the  three Dongbei provinces themselves? Could it be a regional pronunciation , some affect of northeastern dialect?

Quote from: pcke2000 on June 28, 2020, 03:22:23 PM

Quote from: Boris Badinov on June 28, 2020, 12:46:35 PM
This was brought up in a thread on gunboards:

Well P sounds and looks like B in Pinyin system"

That does not sound right (in mainland China).

Perhaps the DP designation is an amalgam of Pinyin and Wade-Giles latinizations.

DongBei = Pinyin
TungPei = Wade-Giles

Goven the fact that all of the cities are located in Dongbei/Tungpei (aka Inner Manchuria) its seems very likley that the  DP/DB designations (regardkess of what they may mean) may be  regionally specific designators.

No?

I raised the Dōngběi idea a few years ago (middle of page 6). The P I'm still uncertain about but I agree that it's most likely referring to the region, since all of the DBs and DPs city designations fall in Dōngběi.

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on July 01, 2020, 04:53:37 PM
I raised the Dōngběi idea a few years ago (middle of page 6). The P I'm still uncertain about but I agree that it's most likely referring to the region, since all of the DBs and DPs city designations fall in Dōngběi.

OK, could it be both Ds stand for Dōngběi?  Could the B and P further separate the cities, like Dōngběi North or Dōngběi South?  Dōngběi Crips or Dōngběi Bloods?  :))

Quote from: Justin Hell on July 01, 2020, 05:58:24 PM

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on July 01, 2020, 04:53:37 PM
I raised the Dōngběi idea a few years ago (middle of page 6). The P I'm still uncertain about but I agree that it's most likely referring to the region, since all of the DBs and DPs city designations fall in Dōngběi.

OK, could it be both Ds stand for Dōngběi?  Could the B and P further separate the cities, like Dōngběi North or Dōngběi South?  Dōngběi Crips or Dōngběi Bloods?  :))

Interesting idea, but if you look at where the cities lie on a map, also on page 6, the P and B cities are interspersed, so I don’t think that’s it.

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on July 01, 2020, 08:37:25 PM

Quote from: Justin Hell on July 01, 2020, 05:58:24 PM

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on July 01, 2020, 04:53:37 PM
I raised the Dōngběi idea a few years ago (middle of page 6). The P I'm still uncertain about but I agree that it's most likely referring to the region, since all of the DBs and DPs city designations fall in Dōngběi.

OK, could it be both Ds stand for Dōngběi?  Could the B and P further separate the cities, like Dōngběi North or Dōngběi South?  Dōngběi Crips or Dōngběi Bloods?  :))

Interesting idea, but if you look at where the cities lie on a map, also on page 6, the P and B cities are interspersed, so I don’t think that’s it.

I hoped someone would look at a map for me...thanks!  thumb1
In that case, B/P could be as silly as Sheriff vs. Highway Patrol too....or the Chinese equivalent.

Bringing my map graphic forward from page 6, though it may be a bit out of date.



(https://image.ibb.co/ct2YOG/DB_DP_Map_v1.png)

Adding my DP pic on here so it is referenced. Also have a question, weren't there some DK stamped SKSs as well? Vaguely remember that in the discussion somewhere(maybe on Gunboards) and it being Korea. Just what I remembered, not saying it is correct thought.

(https://i.ibb.co/rp4pRM1/AA2-AA7-B3-C3-D9-4-CD4-A6-EF-53-EE7-CC24-CAF-1-201-a.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PWwWv4f)

I've never heard of a "DK" stamp or a Korean connection...


...but I'd vote for a Dead Kennedys connection if a DK version did surface 8) rofl

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on September 28, 2020, 02:28:42 PM
I've never heard of a "DK" stamp or a Korean connection...


...but I'd vote for a Dead Kennedys connection if a DK version did surface 8) rofl

I so love this place.

Quote from: Justin Hell on September 28, 2020, 10:09:17 PM

Quote from: Phosphorus32 on September 28, 2020, 02:28:42 PM
I've never heard of a "DK" stamp or a Korean connection...


...but I'd vote for a Dead Kennedys connection if a DK version did surface 8) rofl

I so love this place.

;)  rockon  :)

/I>k\ rofl

Quote from: Justin Hell on September 28, 2020, 11:14:31 PM
/I>k\ rofl

I never knew a Capitol I was greater than a lower case k. Learn something knew every day on these threads. thumb1 chuckles1

Quote from: Greatguns on September 29, 2020, 09:24:17 AM

Quote from: Justin Hell on September 28, 2020, 11:14:31 PM
/I>k\ rofl

I never knew a Capitol I was greater than a lower case k. Learn something knew every day on these threads. thumb1 chuckles1

Well, it is a capital letter.... :)
That was the best I could come up with to try make a Dead Kennedy's logo factory stamp.  I tried a couple other ways...that was closest.

Quote from: Justin Hell on September 29, 2020, 09:54:31 AM

Quote from: Greatguns on September 29, 2020, 09:24:17 AM

Quote from: Justin Hell on September 28, 2020, 11:14:31 PM
/I>k\ rofl

I never knew a Capitol I was greater than a lower case k. Learn something knew every day on these threads. thumb1 chuckles1

Well, it is a capital letter.... :)
That was the best I could come up with to try make a Dead Kennedy's logo factory stamp.  I tried a couple other ways...that was closest.

clap1 clap1 clap1 thumb1

This DP came into the shop some time ago, missing a bolt. My buddy that works there is trying to rebuild it. The Kanji are confusing as the 1st three seem to represent different cities. The last one I’m not so sure about. Any thoughts? I seemed to have lost the full rifle picture....


(https://i.ibb.co/y5zQ8Xx/C6019604-8-A94-4-E9-F-81-D3-C01-DD7-F4-B939.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d6N5QrH)

(https://i.ibb.co/0rjmm4k/2-D382678-9706-4-E47-A8-E0-5-E7-E59-C3-B048.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VTWJJnd)

(https://i.ibb.co/RTKFJRk/9-B19-B301-D7-C7-41-CC-B1-AC-171952270841.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TMGfN9x)

(https://i.ibb.co/m0KSDF7/9-E666-C0-A-D6-F9-4-AC7-9813-A6974447-F36-F.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7QDbYNF)

If you look above at my pic you'll see yours is the same. Last three are the Type 56 Kanji symbols with the first one being Yanji City

Thanks . I’m curious about the R in front of the serial number too

Quote from: 100Acre on November 01, 2020, 09:16:19 AM
Thanks . I’m curious about the R in front of the serial number too

The random prefix or suffix single letters found on Type 56s are still of uncertain origin, though they were definitely done after original manufacture by either the exporter or importer. I tend toward the importer doing it in order to ensure that the serial number was unique within their records, as required by law.

This excludes the 1959-60 "letter gun" production, which are easily picked out by their features (Factory 26, long lug threaded barrel, lightening cuts in bayonet lug and bolt carrier, side swivel) and that the letter precedes 4 to 5 numbers with the same font style.

Quote from: 100Acre on November 01, 2020, 09:16:19 AM
Thanks . I’m curious about the R in front of the serial number too

Many of the pre-ban importers added single Letter prefixes/suffixes to the receiver serials, possibly for their own record keeping. It was not done by all importers, however.

You guys are a wealth of historical information. I love it! Thank you.

I'll add my DP to the thread.
Purchased new by me in the early 90's at a local gunshop.
It is totally original and matching.
Came as shown with no bayonet but with a bayonet lug. I think that would date the purchase to 1993 or early 94?
Shoots really nice but hasn't seen much range time.
I have obscured the last two digits of the S/N

https://flic.kr/s/aHsmRRRTJf (https://flic.kr/s/aHsmRRRTJf)

if you want a specific image taken just let me know.

Nice! Looks like a DP Changchun made in 1979 (24th year of production of the Type 56).

Came across this DP. Note the crummy stampings, overall poor workmanship.

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/893510618