So over the shoutcast Power Surge had shown a link to a gun that was being advertised on armslist that was semi-local to me (down in Las Cruces, NM ~ 200 miles south of me, listing is now closed). The listing seemed to indicate it was a VN bringback:
ARMSLIST - For Sale: North Vietman SKS (http://www.armslist.com/posts/4518392/las-cruces-new-mexico-rifles-for-sale--north-vietman-sks).
Anywhoo, I looked it over for all of 5 seconds and noticed there was a groove cutout in the stock to accommodate one of the 'inverted' receiver cover takedown lavers. I mentioned that I thought the seller was probably mistaken that it was a VN bringback and the stock was likely off a far newer build like a 23-24 mil.
Unfortunately for me sometimes things just nag and nag at me; they begin to bother me so much that I simply have to know. I dug and dug and dug for more information. I can now 100% say now that:
RM WAS WRONG! RM WAS WRONG!! RM WAS WRONG!!! RM WAS WRONG!!!!
Not only was I wrong, I was so off base it's not even funny!
It appears that a transition was made in the mid 12 million /26\s to the inverted take down lever and the cutout in the stock.
Note carbine 122461XX looks like I expected it should look:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T26/12246106_right_rear.jpg)
Then I got to 122911XX. Wait a minute:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T26/12291121_receiver_cover.jpg)
Must have been a total fluke. Gun must have been retrofitted in the 1980's just prior to import right? Not so fast Toyota. Papered VN import #1, capture paper date of 5/27/1972, 130355XX:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T26/13035570_right_center.jpg)
Papered VN import #2, capture paper date of 4/30/1970, 130657XX:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T26/13065793_right_rear.jpg)
And finally an unknown import, 130714XX:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T26/13071416_right_stock.jpg)
These, especially the VN bringbacks indicate that this was likely the original equipment on these guns! There's no way a gun is manufactured in year 13 (1968), goes to war in another country, somehow goes through a Chinese refurb where a different style takedown lever is installed and the original stock is either replaced with a matching S/N'd stock or simply modified with a takedown lever cutout, and then is captured two years later. No way.
So I'm thinking, wait a minute, WTF?! None of the 1.5 mil Chinese have this kind of takedown lever!?!:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T26/1501814_right_center2.jpg)
Looking at my photos of 14 mil guns, I find that I have one single photo of a single receiver, S/N 14243XX. That simply won't do. There's bound to be tons of them out there if the 243k rolling number is an accurate representation of the minimum production from that year.
So here's where I am, in conclusion:
- Yes the Chinese did use inverted takedown levers as early as 1967 in the 12 million /26\ series.
- Yes RM was spectacularly wrong!
- Yes the meager evidence I've got (4 guns that show this feature) points towards the 1.5 mil series *not* having this change implemented. Why?
- It's unknown when the change reverted back to the non-inverted takedown lever, or whether it actually did or not. Certainly the 23-24 million /26\ series did not revert. With so few 1.5 mils it is possible they simply utilized a different set of already made takedown levers & stocks (perhaps made for use at another arsenal). The nagging suggestion is there, however, that maybe the 1.5 mil /26\s dont really belong in the 1970 slot.
- We clearly need more examples, especially of the 14 mil /26\ guns.
What do you all think?
Does that mean I was finally good for something? :P
I am pretty sure I have seen other 14 mil with the inverted lever. I only noticed them because you guys said the 23/24 mils were basically a continuation of the 14 mil /26\. I'll see if I can find some.
Also...wasn't the 0296 "70" serial M21 dated to be made in 70? It has the inverted take down with the cut out too. It also has the french tickler...which would make that appearance 70 also instead of 78 like the guide says.
If the 0296 M21s follow the S/N convention norm, then yes 1970 should be indicated by a 70XXXXXX serial. Putting them at 1970 smack dab in between the 1969 14 mil /26\s and the 1978 23 mil /26\s would make sense and there have been many that have advocated that 0296 is closely related to /26\ as was seen in the T53 days.
The 1970 1.5 mils have me annoyed through. They are not configured like a 14 mil /26\ is. Why is that? I think I'm mainly having issues with the off-on-off route that the take down levers seem to show progressing from 12 mil through 1.5 mil. There's bound to be some logical reason behind it. It runs the gambit all the way from using up leftover parts to finish the 1.5 mil /26\s to the 1.5's are not 1970 guns. Simply put, we need more data.
I'm looking at all the active GB listings right now...
14 mil with a regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=496777813
12 mil with a regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=496198339
15 mil, but not sure if this is considered a /26\ or not: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=495276576
12 mil, regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497497873
14 mil, but can't make out the stamp, regular lever:http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497486527
12 mil, regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497425341
That's all I see on GB right now...no upside down levers.
A few months ago a guy was selling some beat to hell stocks on eBay, one of which had the cutout for the inverted lever. I suspected these were culled from the recent imports....but the inverted lever cutout was bugging me. I contacted the seller to tell him it was not what he was advertising...no reply....
JUSTIN HELL WAS WRONG TOO!!!!
I wonder if at some point a left handed SKS was considered and they just opted to use up parts later on? It would have been right side up if it was on the 'wrong' side. It seems like a trivial part to convert to left handed, since there are no exclusively left handed safety levers out there...I am probably wrong again. I just find the inverted lever odd in the first place...why would that seem necessary? It is one more step in stock milling, and doesn't really provide any benefit or improvement over the original design.
I probably never would have even noticed that stock auction if I weren't trying desperately to find an unserialed inverted take down lever stock for my '78. banghead1
Now I wonder if these were made for pinned and threaded barrels?! Dang it, I should have just bought the fugly thing...it was super cheap.
Quote from: Justin Hell on July 27, 2015, 04:29:15 PM
A few months ago a guy was selling some beat to hell stocks on eBay, one of which had the cutout for the inverted lever. I suspected these were culled from the recent imports....but the inverted lever cutout was bugging me. I contacted the seller to tell him it was not what he was advertising...no reply....
JUSTIN HELL WAS WRONG TOO!!!!
I wonder if at some point a left handed SKS was considered and they just opted to use up parts later on? It would have been right side up if it was on the 'wrong' side. It seems like a trivial part to convert to left handed, since there are no exclusively left handed safety levers out there...I am probably wrong again. I just find the inverted lever odd in the first place...why would that seem necessary? It is one more step in stock milling, and doesn't really provide any benefit or improvement over the original design.
I probably never would have even noticed that stock auction if I weren't trying desperately to find an unserialed inverted take down lever stock for my '78. banghead1
Now I wonder if these were made for pinned and threaded barrels?! Dang it, I should have just bought the fugly thing...it was super cheap.
I'm not too sure you'll find an unserialed double cut stock. I don't recall any commercial models coming with that style. You might just have to find a lightly stamped one, and then sand and refinish it.
As for the "why" to the inverted lever, my best guess would be that maybe soldiers complained of the standard lever being caught on stuff and accidentally pulling the lever up without them knowing and popping covers. Flipping it upside down would make it more even with the stock.
After reviewing the older stock cutouts vs my 78/79 stock....they look very roughly gouged out...like someone took a rasp file to the stock vs. it being milled in and pretty like the 78/79's. Maybe the upside down levers were just a mistake and early on they just made due with what they had...and later they used up the leftovers?
There has to be some kind of reasoning behind this....and oh boy, does it bug me. :)
PS: That was the only thing I could think of to explain the inverted lever....but I don't think I have ever experienced it getting caught on anything. When I got my '78 it kind of surprised me, as it was in an ATI and it sure was hard on my thumbnail trying to crack her open. :)
Quote from: Justin Hell on July 27, 2015, 04:40:21 PM
After reviewing the older stock cutouts vs my 78/79 stock....they look very roughly gouged out...like someone took a rasp file to the stock vs. it being milled in and pretty like the 78/79's. Maybe the upside down levers were just a mistake and early on they just made due with what they had...and later they used up the leftovers?
There has to be some kind of reasoning behind this....and oh boy, does it bug me. :)
PS: That was the only thing I could think of to explain the inverted lever....but I don't think I have ever experienced it getting caught on anything. When I got my '78 it kind of surprised me, as it was in an ATI and it sure was hard on my thumbnail trying to crack her open. :)
But...you're also not out in the jungle and wearing full fatigues and supplies...which is a lot of stuff to catch on that.
I also noticed that the early guns RM posted look like the stocks were cut as an afterthought. I bet the first bunch of these inverted lever guns had normal stocks, and the soldiers notched the stocks once they realized it was very hard to grab the lever with it even with the stock. Then the arsenals made the fix for that later by notching the stocks.
What I have noticed...
The inverted levers show up with no rhyme or reason. There is nothing wrong with the dating system and 14m guns do nit have this feature. The some of the 1.5 have a milled trigger geuard which tells me they were using old stock..... They terminated production in 1970 just a few weeks into the year and knew it was going to be a short run by evidence of the DROPPED DIGIT and low serials.
Think of how many times they swapped sling swivel location......
Yup, those stock cutouts for the early inverted take down levers are certainly all rough and completely different from each other. That papered VN import #2 looks like it was done with a dull butter knife. I think my 8 year old could do a better job given the chance. chuckles1
I've often wondered about why the change in the take down lever was done. Other changes make sense: short lug barrels are lighter than long lugged barrels, pinned barrels weigh even less and start with a *much* smaller diameter blank.
I hadn't considered the left handed angle Justin, that's an interesting idea, though I think the internals of the receiver where the retaining cross-pin of the locking lug is held when 'locked' isn't milled in on the opposite side (I think anyway, I'll have to break down something when I get home to verify...now I'm curious!). I keep wanting to go back and see how this part compares to it's counterpart on an AK or T63. Unfortunately, neither one has need for this lever so it couldn't be simply repurposing extras off another weapon platform to use on these particular type 56s. It could be as easy as a mistake by a new plant running these and instead of tossing them, they improvised to make them work. Certainly there is no good reason I can think of to make the guns *more* complex to manufacture (by adding in another step to fabricating the stock)
Either way, I was surprised that my 14 million data is so sparse. I probably see 40-60 of them in each monthly GB report, but I gloss over 99% of the /26\ guns because they are so vanilla, only pulling photos from the more interesting ones (high numbers, 6 mil, 1.5 mil, etc.). I need to keep my eyes peeled for some 12-14s and see what may turn up among the many 'typical' imported guns. Some kind of pattern will emerge I'm sure. thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on July 27, 2015, 05:32:41 PM
Think of how many times they swapped sling swivel location......
Yup there is that. More data will help get to the bottom of it. thumb1
I seem to recall seeing a post claiming a specific model always had the ambi safety levers, and that got me to wondering about the inverted levers. Whoever sells them on eBay always has them upside down in the photos...I keep getting excited whenever I see it out of the corner of my eye. I would find it strange if a lefty option would ever be considered, but...who knows? I always thought the ambi safety levers were aftermarket goodies...apparently not?
Seems more likely that they would take a hammer to southpaws in China though and force them to be 'normal' :)
Quote from: Justin Hell on July 27, 2015, 08:50:44 PM
I seem to recall seeing a post claiming a specific model always had the ambi safety levers, and that got me to wondering about the inverted levers. Whoever sells them on eBay always has them upside down in the photos...I keep getting excited whenever I see it out of the corner of my eye. I would find it strange if a lefty option would ever be considered, but...who knows? I always thought the ambi safety levers were aftermarket goodies...apparently not?
Seems more likely that they would take a hammer to southpaws in China though and force them to be 'normal' :)
Polytech Hunter has the ambi safety... Polytech Hunter - Chinese SKS Guide (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/polytech-hunter.html)
Quote from: Power Surge on July 27, 2015, 08:57:16 PM
Quote from: Justin Hell on July 27, 2015, 08:50:44 PM
I seem to recall seeing a post claiming a specific model always had the ambi safety levers, and that got me to wondering about the inverted levers. Whoever sells them on eBay always has them upside down in the photos...I keep getting excited whenever I see it out of the corner of my eye. I would find it strange if a lefty option would ever be considered, but...who knows? I always thought the ambi safety levers were aftermarket goodies...apparently not?
Seems more likely that they would take a hammer to southpaws in China though and force them to be 'normal' :)
Polytech Hunter has the ambi safety... Polytech Hunter - Chinese SKS Guide (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/polytech-hunter.html)
Ahh...a commercial model, that makes more sense than a military version...so goes that idea. cry1
Interesting stuff...........I think we should rethink the whole dating system and start from scratch.... wink1 chuckles1 jk
Laff... Random notched stocks and inverted levers have no bearing on production dating. Especially when we already know changes were made for other countries etc, not to mention the 1.5m 1970 guns were obviously using up stock... AND most 14m do not have the lever and cut.
Laff Tony. pullhair1
I'm just keeping an open mind. I'm being hard on the theory, raising points against it and seeing if anything comes of it. I don't want to fall into the trap of 'everybody says it therefore it must be true!' If we find five or ten 14 mils with a regular takedown lever and no cut in the original stock, that will be enough for me to put this one to rest. thumb1. Got any examples LC?
Quote from: Power Surge on July 27, 2015, 03:59:59 PM
14 mil with a regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=496777813
12 mil with a regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=496198339
15 mil, but not sure if this is considered a /26\ or not: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=495276576
12 mil, regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497497873
14 mil, but can't make out the stamp, regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497486527
12 mil, regular lever: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497425341
That's all I see on GB right now...no upside down levers.
Nice PS. I totally missed these until now. The 12 mils don't bother me. I've seen many with normal takedown levers. The first 14 is a 1.4 mil. I don't think it's a /26\ but I can't really tell what the arsenal stamp is. The 1.5 is a /216\ (I got semi-excited it was a /26\!). The second 1.4 mil appears to be a /106\ maybe? Either way, I'm still ridiculously light on 14 mil /26\s. cry1
Thanks for looking though! We'll have to see what turns up in the July Chinese GB report.
I haven't exactly been saving every 14m pic over the last 6 years. Lol
Laff slacker! :P
Ok so we have:
A bunch of 1.4 mils from non /26\ arsenals.
A "I've seen them over the past 6 years but don't have any photos"
and I've got a single photo of a 14 mil receiver only:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T26/14242371_receiver.jpg~original)
C'mon guys, this is downright embarrassing! :)
I'm tryin!
I know Sal, I know! thumb1
Here's food for thought. If they turn out to be really tough to find (not saying they are, but man only one photo of a 14 in my 1000's of them?!), maybe they are 1.4 mils after all (and the last "1" in the image above is an exporter/importer added mark). If that's the case, 24,237 is the high for this series, not 242k and finding them would be akin to finding a 1.5 mil /26\.
We're bound to find something now that eyes are looking for 'em though. dance1
What about what I mentioned about the 0296 m21 guns? They are supposedly dated 1970, but have all the 78/79 features like french tickler and inverted lever?
Welp.... There is atleast 117k of them
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/401354.jpg)
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/7469423.jpg)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on July 29, 2015, 03:36:27 PM
Welp.... There is atleast 117k of them
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/401354.jpg)
(http://chinesesks.weebly.com/uploads/2/9/2/2/29221347/7469423.jpg)
That "14" sure looks like it was stamped at a different time than the rest of that serial, doesn't it?
Nope... Just looks like a year indicator
Here's a 12-/26\
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497640815 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497640815)
Quote from: Power Surge on July 29, 2015, 03:26:24 PM
What about what I mentioned about the 0296 m21 guns? They are supposedly dated 1970, but have all the 78/79 features like french tickler and inverted lever?
There's nothing in those features that disqualifies the 0296 M21s from being a 1970. We're seeing the inverted takedown levers as early as 12 mil /26\ on and the french tickler style handguard was originally used on T63s much earlier than 23/24 mil /26\s:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/T63/13359982_left_handguard.jpg~original)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on July 29, 2015, 03:36:27 PM
Welp.... There is atleast 117k of them
Nice! I knew I could count on you. thumb1
Quote from: Power Surge on July 29, 2015, 03:46:53 PM
That "14" sure looks like it was stamped at a different time than the rest of that serial, doesn't it?
The 14 is indeed different than the rest, but that is not unlike the 10, 11's, 12's, 13's etc. Remember that the receiver is the *only* place that the millions (and sometimes even the hundred thousands) digits are located. They could easily have been stamped long before the rifle was
manufactured assembled, or could have been stamped with it as a final step after final checkout. It's not a stretch to say it was not stamped with the rest of the S/N, but based on some of the year codes we've seen with spaces between them and the rolling number, this is not unusual in the least like LC says.
Quote from: bbush44 on July 29, 2015, 04:05:30 PM
Here's a 12-/26\
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497640815 (http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=497640815)
Nice Brian, S/N 122407XX with an original takedown lever. thumb1
Highest 12 mil with the original takedown is still 122461XX.
Lowest with the inverted lever is still 122911XX for a spread of about 45k guns.
It'll be interesting to see if they transitioned like the 3 million /26\ side swivels (all over the place, jumping S/N blocks, with no real rhyme or reason until permanent transition occurs with the letter series) or if it changed and stuck after 122XXXXX S/N.
Perhaps all 14m were inverted, but I swaer I have seen some non inverted. :-\
Here is a 26 1.5 and two 326 1.5s... I'm confident 326 was one of the locations that took over production in 1970. Nothing inverted on these 1970 guns.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/f1sks4.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/f1sks1.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/f1sks2.jpg)
How about this 14mil? Looks like a 23/24... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=498089372
Gimme an hr to get off work and I'll break it down.
Quote from: Power Surge on July 29, 2015, 07:35:32 PM
How about this 14mil? Looks like a 23/24... http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=498089372
Welp.. This is a 1.4 1969 arsenal /256\ and it has more in common with the similar erra late m21 and /26\ guns because of the inverted lever and the date. This 1.4 was either a: reworked prior to import using the french fickler, or b: bubba added it when he cut the bayo lug. We know from pics of crate-fresh 256 guns that they likely did not originally have a french fickler. The same can be said for some 23/24m /26\ guns that do not have a french fickler..... wood was added during rework. Just like a two piece gastube, dont be surprized to see something used on a gun 'out of the norm'.
Q: When was my Chinese Type 56 SKS made? in Chinese SKS (Military) - Page 1 of 2 (https://clone.sks-files.com/chinese-sks-military/17/q-when-was-my-chinese-type-56-sks-made/360/)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/FAQ_Items/marstar_crate_open5.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/FAQ_Items/marstar_crate_open2.jpg~original)
1.4 mil /256\, regular takedown, no notch on original stock, wood handguard:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T256/1411982_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T256/1411982_right_center.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T256/1411982_right_rear.jpg~original)
1.5 mil /256\, regular takedown, no notch on original stock, wood handguard:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T256/1512566_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T256/1512566_right_whole.jpg~original)
Didn't I just post a 1.4?
Yay me!
12 mil bring back with inverted lever! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=488301872
Quote from: Power Surge on July 29, 2015, 11:56:56 PM
Yay me!
12 mil bring back with inverted lever! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=488301872
[/quote
Hmm. 12.327.*** all over the place.
Notice that the ones with the inverted levers seem to be bring backs?
Quote from: Power Surge on July 30, 2015, 12:35:56 AM
Notice that the ones with the inverted levers seem to be bring backs?
No... I have ones on the guide that are not... Your 1.4 256 is not... All 23/24m are not.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on July 30, 2015, 12:42:01 AM
Quote from: Power Surge on July 30, 2015, 12:35:56 AM
Notice that the ones with the inverted levers seem to be bring backs?
No... I have ones on the guide that are not... Your 1.4 256 is not... All 23/24m are not.
Sorry, I meant the 12 mils with inverted levers...
RM...here are TWO more bring back 12 mils....also with an inverted lever. Like I stated earlier....looks like all the bring backs have them...hmmm
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=513934163
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=513786600
RM....here's a 14 mil /26\ with an inverted lever...
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=537558682
Nice. Too bad about the replacement stock though. I'm having a heck of a hard time finding a 14 mil /26\ with an original stock. 14 mils are pretty bizzare in that there seems to be tons of them produced (highest S/N I have is 1424237X), so you'd think out of 242k produced we'd be swimming in them but that just doesn't seem to be the case. I only have 5 in my database. negative1 The inverted lever is pretty well standard from mid 12 mil /26\ through 14 mil /26\.
Prolly mostly went as aid to other nations.
RM...here's another 1.5 mil /26\....
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=538382556
Here's a 14 mil barreled receiver....
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=538292139
Quote from: Power Surge on January 21, 2016, 09:01:30 PM
RM...here's another 1.5 mil /26\....
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=538382556
I'm collecting the serials on these btw. Interesting it has the same 'C' stamped to the left if the /26\ just like mine.
Also the serial is STILL under the 20k threshold observed. thumb1
Ah... This one is already on the list. Interesting
I stuck it there last week. Pulled it from the dec GB listings. Don't see too many, but the trend is pretty clear. They are pretty neat birds!