Even though it's a Norinco import, this version is known as a Chinese Public Security SKS. As I understand it the Chinese Security Forces are like their Gestapo or Stassi, if they come get you they keep you, it's not good. A Chinese Security SKS is a Type 56 Carbine produced at one of three specific state-owned/controlled arsenals expressly for issue to soldiers of the National Public Security Forces and are marked as such. It has two two Chinese ideographs on the right side of the receiver. Also, the bolt carrier is a very dull matte finish. They are identified by arsenal /26\, /016\, and [0141], all though a few others have been noted, those are the most common. These only were imported through KFS (Keng’s Firearms Specialties) located in Georgia. From what I have read, it was a very small (a pallet or two was the answer I got) lot that came through that importer.
My example, I believe the stock possibly got changed at some point, as most I see have a numbered stock with the rear side sling mount. But being a Chinese, who knows? This stock is an unnumbered Chinese with bottom sling hanger. The metal however is all number matching. This example is a later pin barrel model, and one thing I do notice, the finish work, trigger ect. is better than my other Chinese rifles. The other thing, maybe it's just me, it does seem slightly more accurate than many of my other SKS's on equal shooting terms.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/id9drgn89lbwyoy/HPIM0069_zps7051589d.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/uus6ouofjbpmad9/HPIM0070_zps9099d9b3.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/1llau89dkzqhe38/HPIM0079_zps97ceaa34.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/675ofuwaf89rwzp/HPIM0094_zpsbe007f80.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/0xiv6axiwrg5tpt/HPIM0073_zpsb6df7d6f.jpg?dl=0)
Neat and clean, very nice GM! Do they still use these carbines or have they moved on to something else?
Nice one. Think maybe there was some extra quality control with these models? Seems to be these are all pretty nice and tend to be pretty accurate.
No clue on quality control, may be just being a later design and of different manufacturing methods combined to help with accuracy.
One thing I've found, the barrel is almost the same dimension wise as a Mak 90 barrel, just longer. The points at the front sight, gas block, and where it's pressed in the receiver are all roughly within .002 of each other in diameter. Also, the exterior machine work and finish on the two barrels barrels is very close.
But, pulling this info based off two Mak 90s and one pressed barrel SKS is a bit of a stretch. It was just something I was curious about and happened to measure on them.
Possibly I'm trying to read something into it that may not be there but judging by the photos the impression I get is maybe a little more care was taken in manufacturing and assembling these specimens.
Mine is an /016\, which I'm thinking is PolyTech factory. They built various models, a M-14 copy, machined receiver Aks and other things, given that, it could be built to higher tolerances and possibly better QC. And, if my miserable failing memory :o serve me correctly, the PolyTech SKSs are generally slightly better than the Norinco as far as machine work and fitting.
Again, just hazarding a guess from my feeble mind chuckles1
Same with the Polytech AK variants versus the Norinco MAK's. My old Polytech AKS was worlds nicer than my buddy's MAK90.
I also have an /016\ sks, shall I compare to my others when I get home?
I'll report back
Another necrothread here, I know. But as a Newb to the board, these are all "new" threads to me and interesting.
I also have a Security Forces SKS imported by Kengs. Mine is stamped with the /416\ Arsenal Code. (Yes, I know there are ongoing discussions about 016 vs. 416, but my questions are more for the PolyTech connection that is mentioned here.) I have seen the Oval 386 on PolyTech rifles, but personally, not the other ones suggested. Is there a direct connection of the Arsenal /416\, (or /016\ to some views), to the PolyTech arms production company?
Another question: has anyone with one of these Kengs import, Security Forces SKS rifles, purchased one of the Kengs "Certificate of Authenticity"? $50.00 is a bit steep for a piece of paper, unless it would have some newer, relevant info that might show, or maybe help establish lines of manufacture lineage? I think I'm going to take the plunge and buy one, unless someone else has and was disappointed by the results? Anyone that's bought one of the certificates from Kengs, please give feedback on your purchase!
I have taken a few pics of my PS rifle, but the lighting and pics did no justice to the rifle. I will try to get some better pics tomorrow, if the weather holds. It's still "unfired-since-import", still in the preservative grease, although it's not the cosmoline that we all love so much. ::) I have no idea about the provenance of the receiver before being exported. XXXSKS, can you shed any light on that?
Are there any pics of Security Forces SKS marked rifles with the /26\ Arsenal Code here, or anywhere that I could see? Thanks for any feedback on these questions.
*Edited for spelling correction.
firstchoice
Here ya go
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=480487575
/26 Public Security - Chinese SKS Guide (http://chinesesks.weebly.com/26-public-security.html)
I haven't processed the may GB stuff (so I don't have that /26\ in my files yet), but I do have a 1977 [0140] and a 1979 [0141]:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/22000139_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/22000139_PS_stamp.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/24003630_receiver.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/24003630_PS_stamp.jpg~original)
These are relatively new guns for them to have exported considering they came into the states during the '84 to '94 import window.
Thanks LC and RM! A veritable plethora of SKS knowledge around here!
LC, that GB Seller also had some nice PolyTech Legend specimens from the same personal collection of Mr. Keng, of KFS Imports. Pricey now, wish I had bought one, (or more) of them when they were newly imported. Hindsight is great.
RM, I noticed the Bolt Carrier on the 0140 is the grey-colored, (like the OP's BC), as opposed to the 0141's standard-looking BC. Is this normal for Security Forces rifles? Is that some form of anti-corrosion treatment? Or something simpler, like a mandate for a non-glare BC?
Are there any other known Arsenal Codes for the Security Forces rifles, other than /26\, 0140, 0141, and the /416\ ?
Still curious about the "Certificates of Authenticity" from Kengs. Any feedback on those?
firstchoice
The carrier on most of the Security Forces is a matte finish, no particular coating, just not polished out like the others. Now, the same carrier finish is also seen on other rifles from the same factory as Security Forces, but the only difference is, they lack the stamped marks.
On certificates, I personally have never got one for mine, the $50 sheet of paper is a tad pricey.
GM, In your OP, you mention that yours is a Norinco import. I see it's a KFS import stamp on the receiver. Does it have a Norinco stamp on it anywhere? If Kengs was part and parcel to PolyTech, would they, (PolyTech) have bypassed Norinco altogether for either exporter or importer? Just reading you guys threads on here, from what I gather, there are three exporters of the arms from China? Norinco (G), PolyTech, and South China Industries Group (CSG)? PolyTech may have been absorbed by Norinco by now, since the "good ole' days", IDK. I wasn't surprised to see that China is now the worlds 3rd largest exporter of small arms. (Many going to Sudan and South Africa)
China North Industries (NORINCO) | Facilities | NTI (http://www.nti.org/facilities/49/)
Didn't mean to get too off topic, GM. Just curious if PolyTech was absorbed by Norinco by the time these SF rifles were exported/imported.
firstchoice
The importer was KFS, the exporter was either Norinco or PolyTech. Truthfully I'll have to drag it out and look when I get home from work to see. I want to say that, KFS is the only stamp. And as for PolyTech being absorbed into Norinco, they are still around, producing weaponry.
I think GM is right about the carriers being specific to the arsenal and not so much reflecting the PS stamp. I believe there are other rectangle arsenals with a PS stamp besides the four we've takked about in this thread, but I'll be darned if I can find anymore in my files. :(
As for Norinco and Polytech, they still both exist. Norinco got the northern production capabilities, Polytech got the southern. Norinco is a huge arms producer still; everything from rifles to tanks to guided missiles. LC will come along and add or correct what I've sahd, he's the resident Norinco/Polytech expert. thumb1
QuoteArsenal 266/66 is part of Norinco and Arsenal 296/26, is under Jianshe Corp or China South for the People's Liberation Army
Now, I would guess PolyTech, both a factory and exporter would be 386/416, Norinco, North China Industries, both a factory and exporter, 266/66, and Jianshe is now part of China South industries Arsenal 296/26. And it seems today in China, Jianshe is still the go to factory for military/police/security arms. Back way in the day, Jianshe manufactured weapons might have been exported from China through the other two, given then, they were just a factory, not in the exporting business, yet.
From what I see, this seems to be a general idea on how the manufactures and Chinese exporters are somewhat tied together. Today all three, are multi-billion dollar industries groups, specializing in every thing from weapons, exporting, even autos, auto parts and a myriad of other items.
I seached the net for Chinese Small Arms Exports and after reading a half dozen various sources produced from that search, I was struck by the feeling that the immense scale of the Chinese arms business, and seperate entities trying to do export business across the world is causing a few problems. The Chinese delegation to the UN Security Council has had to explain, or attempt to, anyway, sales to Countries with Arms Embargoes on them, (South Africa-Sudan, among others), done by subordinate members of these Chinese companies without the "bosses' okay". Kind of an Obama-style excuse; "I didn't know anything about it until now". Of course, that could be standard Chinese procedure too. "Sell it, and we'll blame it on a subordinate later". Who knows?
I did notice that all of the Sanctions struck against PolyTech by the USA have now expired. Dreaming here, but it would be nice to regain trade of small arms and ammo with China again. Right after I win five Powerball jackpot's in a row. (Same odds, I know)
I'm saving for a plane ticket to China so I can take a full tour of all three arms companies. I'm absolutely sure they'll let me look through their archives and talk to all the old employees. Maybe even have a parade for me. We'll get all these questions worked out real quick. silly1 rofl rofl2
firstchoice
Hello all, I am new to this forum.
Just got done reading this thread and wondering what the values are on these SK's with these stamps? Thanks.
There's a bit of a premium, maybe $25 to $75 over a similar condition std. T56. Most PS guns tend to have higher values because they are in especially good condition. thumb1
Anyone has actually seen Chinese Public Security Forces use these 'Gong An' labeled SKS (in person, photo, video, etc)? Thanks.
You may see a handful or two of these trade each year at most. They really aren't well known, and it takes a hardcore SKS collector to actually appreciate them. Hence, the premiums aren't great, maybe 10-25%.
Here's one from arsenal /416\, pretty much mint, which sold on Gunbroker on 9-9-18 for $640. Perhaps a $500 gun without the marks.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/783978834 (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/783978834)
Now, if it was a /26\, who knows. I don't believe that any more than 10 or so have been recorded. It would take a LOT of money to get me to part with mine.
But then again, any blade bayo Chinese in the following condition would command a LOT of money.
(https://i.imgur.com/a0QjPcBl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tMhhHYil.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/RcPpxZVl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/j9QHORRl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/CYZSrRtl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/LvG93Vql.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/oOvIParl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/KNmUC63l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/g47IVJ4l.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/lvpbZCRl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/tX9Jq7cl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/2qjLf4ql.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/26XKSkWl.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/9wAL0pxl.jpg)
Quote from: pcke2000 on November 04, 2018, 05:25:03 PM
Anyone has actually seen Chinese Public Security Forces use these 'Gong An' labeled SKS (in person, photo, video, etc)? Thanks.
Hey
pcke2000!
I have nothing to show for that. I'm sure they've upgraded to new rifles long ago, but it seems like there'd be a few pics, somewhere, of the Chinese Public Security Forces using the
Type 56. But, I'm not sure we could ever confirm that stamp in the usual pics that we get. The stamps definitely look like arsenal-time frame stamps, but?
Do you feel that they are a counterfeit stamp?
firstchoice
Quote from: martin08 on November 04, 2018, 08:46:35 PM
You may see a handful or two of these trade each year at most. They really aren't well known, and it takes a hardcore SKS collector to actually appreciate them. Hence, the premiums aren't great, maybe 10-25%.
Here's one from arsenal /416\, pretty much mint, which sold on Gunbroker on 9-9-18 for $640. Perhaps a $500 gun without the marks.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/783978834 (https://www.gunbroker.com/item/783978834)
Now, if it was a /26\, who knows. I don't believe that any more than 10 or so have been recorded. It would take a LOT of money to get me to part with mine.
But then again, any blade bayo Chinese in the following condition would command a LOT of money.
(https://i.imgur.com/a0QjPcBl.jpg)
martin08, that is a beauty of a Type 56! And, a PS rifle, to boot. I'd love to find a /26\ PS rifle in that condition some day.
firstchoice
Quote from: firstchoice on November 04, 2018, 08:59:37 PM
Hey pcke2000!
I have nothing to show for that. I'm sure they've upgraded to new rifles long ago, but it seems like there'd be a few pics, somewhere, of the Chinese Public Security Forces using the Type 56. But, I'm not sure we could ever confirm that stamp in the usual pics that we get. The stamps definitely look like arsenal-time frame stamps, but?
Do you feel that they are a counterfeit stamp?
firstchoice
Agreed that the stamps were done at arsenal, and in the 1960s and 70s. The original bluing is not disturbed, so the stamps were made before final finish.
(https://i.imgur.com/IWMAItJl.jpg)
GM, what's the chances of getting you to repost the original, or updated, pics on this OP? It's a necrothread, but it's always great to read up on and look at the examples.
If I remember correctly, your PS is one the SKS Guide-PS Rifle examples? It's a nice one!
firstchoice
Quote from: firstchoice on November 04, 2018, 09:28:21 PM
GM, what's the chances of getting you to repost the original, or updated, pics on this OP? It's a necrothread, but it's always great to read up on and look at the examples.
If I remember correctly, your PS is one the SKS Guide-PS Rifle examples? It's a nice one!
firstchoice
Oh my.. photophucket strikes again. :-\
FC...... I will update the photos first thing tomorrow when I'm home.
Pictures now fixed. thumb1
Quote from: Greasemonkey on November 05, 2018, 01:09:45 PM
Pictures now fixed. thumb1
Thanks
GM! Very nice example of the /416\
PS Rifles! Good to have the OP in full attire again!
firstchoice
Just completed a comprehensive inventory of my SKS's - came across two PS's I didn't know were in the bunch. Total: 4. Tks all for the excellent discussion!
Quote from: Matchka on November 11, 2018, 10:18:37 PM
Just completed a comprehensive inventory of my SKS's - came across two PS's I didn't know were in the bunch. Total: 4. Tks all for the excellent discussion!
Matchka, I remember your nice [0141] example. If you've got
4 PS rifles, post up those other three! We'd love to see them all!
If possible, reword your subject line on your [0141] post to include the
Public Security Rifle moniker. Most helpful when using a search. Thanks!
firstchoice
That's a great question BUT, the law of diminishing returns might apply considering the scarcity of PS personnel AND witnesses, especially filming(!) their work! chuckles1
I've managed to round up seven of the 'Public Security' over the years - three 0141's and four 416's. I also have a 416 M-2, and 0141's & 416's with no PS stamps. It's all over the map!
Quote from: Matchka on December 09, 2018, 02:38:46 PM
I've managed to round up seven of the 'Public Security' over the years - three 0141's and four 416's. I also have a 416 M-2, and 0141's & 416's with no PS stamps. It's all over the map!
The finish quality of /
416\ rifles, in general, seems to be above average. I've seen a couple of nice [
0141]
PS rifles, but all [
0141] rifles are not well finished. How do your [
0141]
PS rifles rate in the finish department?
firstchoice
Apologies for late reply - my 0141's are crisp, nice looking wood fit and finish.