OK, first and foremost check the egos or Jimmy gets involved bat1 thumb1
Lets play a game... :o
One big question always is "what’s the rarest, overall all else and where does my rifle stand"...... now I don't know, and may not even really care :) , important thing is, it's an SKS and it goes bang safely thumb1 Honestly, I favor Romanians, cause of tracking simplicity and, well no one else really likes them :) ... Is it always the highest priced one that’s the rarest? Naw, I paid maybe something like 400 bucks for a Soviet Sino way back in 2010, I think it was.
Now for you Canadian fellas, your input is welcome as well, I know Romanians and Albanians are hens teeth rare there, like the Chinese and Russians you get are rare here.
Now, you all have a place to discuss and hash it out, and maybe when the fat lady has sung, I might get around to making a chart, that's fully editable (cause we all know, new crap or info pops up) This is not a what’s the best quality, the most accurate, or I shot one and the stock plum fell off debate. And, I know there are hard core collectors of one species only, remember these came from all corners of the Communist world.
Now I have no clue how to do it, we all have ideas, it's just finding an easy way to implement them, seems like there is a million ways to do it, but, does one do it by country, by years, estimated total production, estimated importation, serial prefixes or suffixes, do you compare commercial to mil spec, or keep them separate ...I figure, I will just let the collective mind of the membership drive the list and decide their way, that way, it will be truly unique, but easy to understand.
But again, just be nice, I know it can be very subjective and opinions will vary, wildly, alot like asking the best auto manufacture or cereal bat1
In the end we just want to be able to form a concise, easy to understand SKS-Files rarity list.
Have at it.. thumb1
I dig it man, gonna be a good thread. thumb1
Every1 has their own opinions of course and like always there is the Big Three....but I'd like to mention a good, honest, uncommon but yet very obtainable SKS for those that want 1..
While no where near the top of the list, its still 1 of my personal favorites...The Chinese Public Security SKS. thumb1
Only 1 importer but enough out there to get 1 for yourself w/o breaking the bank.
I really don't have a favorite. I just have an addiction rofl and yes I do like the Romanians to. I don't think I'll be happy till I own one of each. beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
#1- it needs to be a rarity list... Not a popular list. This includes the big three.... There are near 50 each recorded. bat1
#2- you have to define the rare parameters. A- are you breaking it down all the way to individual years within a country? B- is 'rare' going to be based on how many made (many are unknown), how many are recorded, or a general consensus of how hard each is to find in the US?
#3- I would suggest breaking down the order of variants within each country first as this will make merging the countries easier.
#4- how long will the final list be?. I mean, if you include literally everything... The list will be HUGE and get very difficult comparing/ordering say a DB or DP.
#5- who says chinese are rare in the US? "like the Chinese and Russians you get are rare here.". I think you have that backwards.
#6- I aint skerd of no Jimmy.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 10, 2015, 07:29:10 PM
#3- I would suggest breaking down the order of variants within each country first as this will make merging the countries easier.
A great starting point, by country of manufacture.
Add a #7 within each country's list - Capture Papered bringbacks/legit theater variants
Yes but how are you judging rarity. everyone going to look at this picture different. everyone will say a Russian 1949 is rare. I seen 3 Russian 1949 with spikes for sale in Canada online yesterday.
A Canadian list would have to be completely separate. Lol
Quote from: martin08 on November 11, 2015, 08:38:47 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 10, 2015, 07:29:10 PM
#3- I would suggest breaking down the order of variants within each country first as this will make merging the countries easier.
A great starting point, by country of manufacture.
Add a #7 within each country's list - Capture Papered bringbacks/legit theater variants
Nah... Its the variation of rifle being listed, not provanonce accessories that accompany some of them.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 11, 2015, 10:51:16 AM
Quote from: martin08 on November 11, 2015, 08:38:47 AM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 10, 2015, 07:29:10 PM
#3- I would suggest breaking down the order of variants within each country first as this will make merging the countries easier.
A great starting point, by country of manufacture.
Add a #7 within each country's list - Capture Papered bringbacks/legit theater variants
Nah... Its the variation of rifle being listed, not provanonce accessories that accompany some of them.
Again, depends on your definition of rarity. Legit papers are a big factor in valuation, a 14 million series Type 56 with VN papers is valuable, but the 14 mil T56 itself is not rare.
Hmm think1 having just written that sentence I would say it's not a
rarity factor.
QuoteHmm think1 having just written that sentence I would say it's not a rarity factor.
Bingo
Ok, and at the same time.. what carries more clout and rarity, a weapon with full fledge DD603 Registration of War Trophy and/or DD603-1 War Trophy Registration Authorization paperwork or one carrying a verbal "I know it's a bring back" based off a bedtime story.
Buy the gun, not the story, paperwork does the talking otherwise, with no story or justification needed. All surplus weapons usually have a "story". thumb1
To me, a papered anything, like the VN 14mil Type 56 mentioned carries more rarity than a Izhevsk Russian with a box and instruction manual, but the same exact rifles minus paperwork, the Izhevsk wins, because the other is just a 14mil Type 56.
So in my thinking that could leave two separate groups, bonafied papered bringbacks and "supposed" story bringbacks. The "supposed" farther down on the list.
But then again..... :o
Paperwork, it could also be deemed an accessory, just an expensive accessory, like getting the fancy green wooden crate with that Chinese scoped rifle, a true blue Romanian sling with a rifle, or a Honor Guard crate with your shiny new chrome rifle.
Simply based on the included accessories much like the paperwork drives the price of said weapon do.
Just another idea. :)
Thats precisely the point in my #2.. At what point do you still fine rare, and what are the limiting parameters etc.
For the reasons already stated plus a few more, I wouldn't feel comfortable ranking a gun on accessory proving a story and adding value. I like papered guns just as much as the next guy, but this is a rarity list and not a 'popular' or 'valuable' list. Its simply a matter of how often you see, have the ability to buy, and/or how many on lists etc.
Rare is the opposite of common.... And to be honest, I see alot more papered guns for sale etc then MANY other variations, so they will rank rather poorly on an actual unbiased rarety list. The 'big three' same goes.... No matter how cool nor how valuable, we have many more of them recorded then others. The 'big three' are also rather simple... They are either papered or not with no other defining variants so broken down into countries there will be two whole guns listed... Papered and non mlpapered. I also was under the impression from collectors that the top three dont need papers.
I say toss it... Make a separate list for them or something. No single list is going to devalue a gun based on rarity as rarity dont 'always' dictate value.
Not a trivial undertaking. Some more thoughts.
Organizational structure could be:
Country
Arsenal
Model
Distinguishing features within a model
Particular years or serial number ranges or other distinguishing markings (e.g., rare years like 6 mil T56s, 1953 Izhevsks, etc.)
Country provenance could be a finer (lower) level category (e.g., Israeli captures, Vietnamese bring-backs).
The 7.62x54r.net rarity index for Mosins is one model for such an undertaking and I like the scoring rather than absolute ranking aspect of it. In any case, such a list will necessarily get out of date (as the Mosin one has) as importers find new caches and we gather new data. So for updating purposes it is somewhat desirable to keep it simple.
Rarity of Mosin Nagant Rifle Variations (http://7.62x54r.net/MosinID/MosinRarity.htm) (Just avert your eyes RM) rofl
I'm not seeing 'papered' on that list. Likely a reason. ;)
But that Mosin list ain't been updated since well, before dirt was made, or at least I ain't seen it updated in the years I've looked at it.
Keeping it to date is needed to reflect current status
Quote from: Greasemonkey on November 11, 2015, 03:27:57 PM
But that Mosin list ain't been updated since well, before dirt was made, or at least I ain't seen it updated in the years I've looked at it.
Keeping it to date is needed to reflect current status
Absolutely, the Mosin list is out of date. I think that argues for keeping a rarity list or index as simple as possible (and in an easily updated format), while still being informative, so that it isn't such a daunting task to update it when information or imports change the status of an item.
I got it...
If its not /26\.... its crap!
That work? rofl2
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 11, 2015, 04:05:40 PM
I got it...
If its not /26\.... its crap!
That work? rofl2
Observe how LC deftly articulates that the extreme end of the simplicity spectrum may not be desirable either fineprint doh1 chuckles1
I honestly would not say a rifle is any rare because it has papers saying it came from VN. In the end it is the same rifle and many others may have came from there to that are not papered. that's just my 2 cents.
There are so many variables on what might deem one SKS rarer than another. Arsenal, construction, date, country of origin...and what country you are buying in. To me, it is rare if I don't already have one....that's the story I tell the wife every time and I am sticking to it. bat1
With regard to unpapered bringbacks....I still consider them a rarity, due to the lack of import stamp molestation...provided they are all matching. There were those early imports that got away with the import stamp on the receiver cover.
Personally, I find odd features and the evolution of the SKS parts wise more interesting than where/when they were made and/or utilized. If I find a DB or DP with a numbered AK sight leaf, or a cast bulbous gas block sitting next to a very nice, yet common Russian...I am going to gravitate towards the odd vs. the pretty. But, that is just me. A couple of my ugly ducklings turned out to be swans. Even if a Chinese swan is only worth as much as a goose...its my swan, and her name is Suzy. :)
Papered bringbacks....heck there are more of them on GB than Chinese Security Force SKSs or heck, Romanians, a papered bringback is a dime a dozen for lack of better words.
After much internal debate with Jimmy :o, he agrees papers are like slings, crates, butt plug cleaning kits, scopes, yadda yadda.. Yes, some are naturally bringbacks, NK and such, but does a papered Chink bringback trump a NK or EG in rarity, simply cause it has papers, the other don't.
You can't really compare one to the other The Holier than Thou trinity rifle beats the bringback like a redheaded stepchild, why because it's one of the big exalted three.
Now with the advent of other variants recently, the Exalted Three could in theory take a back seat, if you wanna look at shear numbers.
Jimmy says throw bring back status out on it's arse..... it's a nice wonderful brag worthy chest thumping bouns, but really carries little weight in rarity, only in price.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on November 11, 2015, 08:41:19 PM
Papered bringbacks....heck there are more of them on GB than Chinese Security Force SKSs or heck, Romanians, a papered bringback is a dime a dozen for lack of better words.
After much internal debate with Jimmy :o, he agrees papers are like slings, crates, butt plug cleaning kits, scopes, yadda yadda.. Yes, some are naturally bringbacks, NK and such, but does a papered Chink bringback trump a NK or EG in rarity, simply cause it has papers, the other don't.
You can't really compare one to the other The Holier than Thou trinity rifle beats the bringback like a redheaded stepchild, why because it's one of the big exalted three.
Now with the advent of other variants recently, the Exalted Three could in theory take a back seat, if you wanna look at shear numbers.
Jimmy says throw bring back status out on it's arse..... it's a nice wonderful brag worthy chest thumping bouns, but really carries little weight in rarity, only in price.
To me, a papered bring back is like an authenticated autograph. You know the autograph was real when the famous person signed it in front of you, but 40 years later people want to see proof. But it's still a real autograph....
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on November 11, 2015, 10:12:22 AM
A Canadian list would have to be completely separate. Lol
Oh of course. Our vast wealth of Russian SKS would skew your American findings haha.
The easy Canadian list from easiest to hardest to find...
Russian Tula
Russian Izhevsk
Chinese Military Arsenals other than /26\
Chinese Commercial
Yugoslavian
Chinese /26\
Russian with Polish Army Cartouches
Israeli Capture
Albanian/Romanian (have seen 3 Albanian and 1 Romanian lusted for sale in 5 years)
NVA (saw one without stock for sale, missed it)
German (heard rumors of one being in country)
NKA
This isn't from hard data though, just observations from lots of searching for potential buys.