I know we have a bunch of Russian marking/stigma threads but thought I'd start one that's consolidated and easy to find/track. I personally have a hard time finding each one. If there is one in the restricted section, please disregard. Not sure if applicable to Russian SKSs but I've seen it on several Russian weapons. There are three (maybe four) related Leningrad facilities that I'm aware of...this is one of them.
Artel Plant Primus, Leningrad
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad_zpsj20wxxoe.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad_zpsj20wxxoe.jpg.html)
I've never seen that one an an SKS, though I guess I've never looked for it either! :) Here's the Leningrad stamp that is most common to SKSs Bunker, 75th ABV, Leningrad:
(http://image.ibb.co/cmz5xQ/75th_ABV_Leningrad_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/cFEij5/75th_ABV_Leningrad_P.jpg)(http://image.ibb.co/kts3j5/75th_ABV_Leningrad.jpg)
The only other Leningrad associated stamp I've seen is this one, No. 7, Leningrad:
(http://image.ibb.co/ct0Oj5/No_7_Leningrad_1945.jpg)
which I've never seen on anything.
I will have similar setups for all the common stamps once I get them entered, sized, and characterized. I've found some new ones that are (as far as I know) still unknown stamps. It would be nice if we could get someone from Chumak's team on guns.ru to look over our final lists and see if we missed something, or if we have something assigned to a facility that is wrong. As of now I probably have 15 or 20 of them. All these stamps will have their own dedicated pages on the forthcoming Russian sksguide pages.
I'm really glad to see you guys taking the Russian conundrum by the balls... Keep up the work!
Just fount a neat little /12\ on a Russian / Sino-Banian receiver. I had the drawing already made up, so I think this is one Chumak has already noted. I'll check and see if it's a known GRAU/ABV. thumb1
(http://image.ibb.co/kwLOj5/T12_receiver.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/nEg7Bk/T12_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/mr7QxQ/T12.jpg)
Now that's interesting!
This gets better by the day, fascinating running-man...thanks!
Not an uncommon marking but is the Tulsky marking uncommon for this rifle?
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/1_zpssjmpb2ma.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/1_zpssjmpb2ma.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/4_zps3m9iyzdq.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/4_zps3m9iyzdq.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/2_zpsdmyiawx4.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/2_zpsdmyiawx4.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/3_zpsa2zlcyz2.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Tulsky/3_zpsa2zlcyz2.jpg.html)
Quote from: running-man on November 27, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
Just fount a neat little /12\ on a Russian / Sino-Banian receiver. I had the drawing already made up, so I think this is one Chumak has already noted. I'll check and see if it's a known GRAU/ABV. thumb1
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/refurb_marks/T12.jpg~original)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/refurb_marks/T12_P.jpg~original)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/refurb_marks/T12_receiver.jpg~original)
I see they have the triangle 12 and some other triangle numbers listed in their undeciphered list but possibly new info has emerged since that listing?
Quote from: Bunker on November 27, 2015, 08:20:47 PM
Not an uncommon marking but is the Tulsky marking uncommon for this rifle?
I've no idea how common it is on an SKS, but I'll throw out that in my 15 years dealing with SKSs, that is the only one I've ever seen! That is an cool stamp, very detailed strike and nice and large too. Very unlike the simple [/] or <> variations typically seen on the tops of receiver covers.
Where'd you find it? The gun appears to be maybe a post '54 gun from some of the features I see (post '55 if the 'blank' receiver cover is to be believed). I'll compare the prefix to the spreadsheet and see what might turn up.
Awesome find, thanks for posting it!! thumb1
PS: After going through my entire lists, this is the first occurrence I have on record of prefix ФП. No listings for it in Kurgan's registry either... think1
I had it saved in my archives and I know it was on one of the Russian forums because of my labeling system. I'll see if I can locate the link for you. First Tulsky marking I seen on an SKS too. From my understanding that is a Tulsky "commercial" marking but not 100% certain on that?
Edit: Looking at Frank Iannamico's book, he labels the trade mark as modern stylized logo of the Tula Ordnance Plant and I've seen several references of it being commercial, so still digging. Will dig through Wetlands to see if there is anything there. Here are a few pages from a TOZ-49 translated manual that list that stigma. Circa. 1969-71 the TOZ-49 was developed. We know it was used later but trying to narrow down when that marking was first used. I seen a trade mark patent that lists it as 1 Jan 1970 but it's not the greatest reference, so I don't have much confidence in that for now.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/TOZ-49%20Manual/TOZ-49_zpsgdtx060f.png) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/TOZ-49%20Manual/TOZ-49_zpsgdtx060f.png.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/TOZ-49%20Manual/TOZ-49_1_zpsjndwejwc.png) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/TOZ-49%20Manual/TOZ-49_1_zpsjndwejwc.png.html)
Modern "Civilian" TOZ stigma:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Modern%20Civilian%20TOZ%20stigma/1_zpsah7vjlcf.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Modern%20Civilian%20TOZ%20stigma/1_zpsah7vjlcf.jpg.html)
:o
Pretty neat reference Bunker. I'd always heard that the Tulsky mark was a more recent one that superseded the various flavors of Tula stars as well. I've only ever seen it on more modern stuff, indeed they still use one pretty much exactly as shown on that receiver cover stamp as the logo on their webpage http://tulatoz.ru/en/ (http://tulatoz.ru/en/):
(http://image.ibb.co/dgsfWk/Tulsky.jpg)
Interesting to note that in 2001 (according to the pro-disarmament small gun survey project out of Switzerland), these were the sales of the various Russian Plants:
| Company | Total sales (millions of 2004 USD) | # Employees |
| JSC Izhmash | 199.5 | 27300 |
| VA Degtyarev Plant (ZID) | 84.3 | 15000 |
| JSC Izhevsky Mekhanischesky Zavod (IMZ) | 57.7 | 15200 |
| JSC Tulsky Oruzheiny Zavod | 13.4 | 7000 |
| JSC Kovrov Mechanical Plant (KMP) | 22.2 | 3000 |
| Vyatskiye Polyany Machine Building Plant Molot | 21.2 | 7430 |
I was surprised that Tulsky was so far down the list in both $ sales and # of employees!
Quote from: Bunker on November 20, 2015, 12:34:56 AM
Not sure if applicable to Russian SKSs but I've seen it on several Russian weapons. There are three (maybe four) related Leningrad facilities that I'm aware of...this is one of them.
Artel Plant Primus, Leningrad
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad_zpsj20wxxoe.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad/Artel%20Plant%20Primus%20Leningrad_zpsj20wxxoe.jpg.html)
Just found this one going through my files. What does everyone think of the stamp at the center of the barrel lug here. Same information (Л within a larger П) in perhaps a slightly different stamp? Maybe a Л within a box?
(http://image.ibb.co/fr7xBk/AK5423_left_lug.jpg)
Looks like П to me.... No doubt about it.
Different gun, same area. Hard to say if it's a Л within a larger П on this one though.
If it is a Artel Plant Primus, Leningrad stamp, they appear to consistently reside on the left barrel lug on an SKS.
(http://image.ibb.co/c64AWk/BA1747_left_lug.jpg)
These are def not the 'Л'....
Completely different markings. The one on the left is the Artel Plant stigma and the one on the right is a repair stigma. There is also different variations (e.g., no box)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Comparison_zps9toypyiu.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Comparison_zps9toypyiu.jpg.html)
Is the unpacked diamond stigma common for Russian refurb'd SKSs?
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/1949%20Refurb_zpspk7xkpub.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/1949%20Refurb_zpspk7xkpub.jpg.html)
Quote from: Bunker on December 14, 2015, 01:24:36 AM
Is the unpacked diamond stigma common for Russian refurb'd SKSs?
Yes, it's actually quite a common stigma, probably less common than 1st GRAU @ Balakleya, but more than many others.
I have it currently as "D0" which is the first unknown diamond stamp in the list.
(http://image.ibb.co/mM5645/D0_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/hM7xBk/D0_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/encaxQ/D0.jpg)
I've only ever seen it on the receiver cover, whereas others appears on the receiver, receiver cover, stock, etc.
Speaking of diamond stamps, I have quite a few 'unknown' ones (that may indeed be be known by now!):
D2:
(http://image.ibb.co/jRVZrk/D2_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/hNHscQ/D2_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/c0k0Wk/D2.jpg)
D3 (not seen by me on an SKS yet):
(http://image.ibb.co/kvDnBk/D3.jpg)
D5 (not seen by me on an SKS yet):
(http://image.ibb.co/c5OyHQ/D5.jpg)
D6 (not seen by me on an SKS yet):
(http://image.ibb.co/bJcErk/D6_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/b1Q0Wk/D6.jpg)
D7:
(http://image.ibb.co/b02fWk/D7_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/gNUurk/D7_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/f8inBk/D7.jpg)
Quote from: Bunker on December 14, 2015, 12:19:12 AM
Completely different markings. The one on the left is the Artel Plant stigma and the one on the right is a repair stigma. There is also different variations (e.g., no box)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Comparison_zps9toypyiu.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Comparison_zps9toypyiu.jpg.html)
Very neat, yup certainly a different marking there. In that case, I've never seen an Artel stigma on an SKS (but I'll be looking for it going forward!)! thumb1
Running-man I have that П in a box on my Russian but it's on the right side of the barrel lug. I'll have a photo tomorrow.
The symbol in question is on the right side of my barrel lug.
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/Russian%20SKS%2045/Barrel%20lug%20stamp_zpsyjyct3qs.jpg)
Related to shooting/jamming repairs. Stigma is zeroing sample weapons after repairs. Usually in conjunction with other related repairs. I've also seen this stigma alone and in a circle.
Quote from Ruslan Chumak: "П squared" - stigma is zeroing sample weapons after repairs. Apply it on the weapon, past repairs and reduced to the normal battle in the dash remorgana. About this stigma has Tver docks, confirming its value.
Interesting Bunker. So could we say that any SKS with this stigma is a confirmed refurb?
Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.
Quote from: running-man on December 19, 2015, 11:13:53 AM
Interesting Bunker. So could we say that any SKS with this stigma is a confirmed refurb?
I don't know but if it was "П r-squared" you'd be circling around the right area :))
Sorry, early morning geek humor :-[ silly1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 19, 2015, 12:27:49 PM
Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.
I don't know that I have an issue with the term "refurb". There are many guns where you can look at it and say "yup, that one has had work done to it, no doubt about it!" It's the terms 'non-refurb', "unissued", and "unfired" that really gets my goat. It's hubris by the "SKS-gods" plain and simple. As if anyone is so good in 2015 that they know the entire history of XYZ gun from the moment it was built to the moment it was pulled from the crate and sent to a customer's door here in the states. The worst part is that there's never any caveat put on the term that lets new collectors understand it *will* change in the near future when additional evidence is uncovered (think new stamps like this [П] bunker just posted about). Stuff like that is what got the whole ex-DDR fiasco all wound up in my opinion.
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 19, 2015, 12:30:19 PM
I don't know but if it was "П r-squared" you'd be circling around the right area :))
Sorry, early morning geek humor :-[ silly1
think1
wacko1
dead2
banned1
Killin' me Jon, absolutely killin' me.
For those that don't get the geek humor: area of a circle = pi (
π, who's symbol looks very much like a Russian П) * r squared.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 19, 2015, 12:27:49 PM
Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.
Refurbished always sounded kinda cheesy, call it what it is, a reman.. originals can be known good cores. chuckles1 You buy anything with a core, it's always called "reman"ufactured, calipers, alternators, starters..find a place who calls it refurbished, usually you will find it's a low end third party using the term.
So you can have two levels of rebuilding, a quick refurbishment or a complete remanufacturing.
Remanufactured as defined by a major engine manufacture....provide same-as-new performance and reliability at a fraction of the cost of new parts-while reducing the negative impact on the environment. Or refers to a part that, for all practicable purposes, has been completely remanufactured to the standard of a new part.
Refurbished usually defined as they inspect the item as a whole, maybe clean it, simply fix a broken/worn component, they release it for sale or use.
very interesting info. So the next topic could be ' refurbished vs repaired '?
Quote from: running-man on December 19, 2015, 02:43:15 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 19, 2015, 12:27:49 PM
Sure reads that way to me, although like you, I hate the term 'refurb'.. I think most if not all have had something done within its lifetime.
I don't know that I have an issue with the term "refurb". There are many guns where you can look at it and say "yup, that one has had work done to it, no doubt about it!" It's the terms 'non-refurb', "unissued", and "unfired" that really gets my goat. It's hubris by the "SKS-gods" plain and simple. As if anyone is so good in 2015 that they know the entire history of XYZ gun from the moment it was built to the moment it was pulled from the crate and sent to a customer's door here in the states. The worst part is that there's never any caveat put on the term that lets new collectors understand it *will* change in the near future when additional evidence is uncovered (think new stamps like this [П] bunker just posted about). Stuff like that is what got the whole ex-DDR fiasco all wound up in my opinion.
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 19, 2015, 12:30:19 PM
I don't know but if it was "П r-squared" you'd be circling around the right area :))
Sorry, early morning geek humor :-[ silly1
think1
wacko1
dead2
banned1
Killin' me Jon, absolutely killin' me.
For those that don't get the geek humor: area of a circle = pi (π, who's symbol looks very much like a Russian П) * r squared.
Yeah... That too. rofl
I love it here!!! dance2
Just throwing some more food for thought and up for discussion/debate. I’m not 100% convinced on a lot of things regarding this stigma. That being said, I have more faith in Chumak’s group than any other source at this time. Depending on the era and platform, I’ve seen it unofficially ID’d as all sorts of different things. For example, some Nagant’s will have this stigma and some will argue it’s a state inspector manufacturing for quality frames, while others will say it’s a repair marking related to firing issues. Then the marking can be by itself or within a square. IMO if it were related to just quality frames, we would expect to see it on all Nagant’s when initially inspected at the factory. Then the argument of how significant the repair was could possibly dictate whether the marking stands alone or enclosed within a square. This marking, whether alone, within a circle or within a square can be observed on several different platforms from as early as the 1920s well into the 1970s at least. A few examples are the Nagant, TT, PPP, PPS, MN, PM, SKS, AK, and several others.
Here are a few examples of the Nagant for reference and note the marking is not always in the same location.
Solo П:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/2_zpsosuw9pqm.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/2_zpsosuw9pqm.jpg.html)
Solo П: 1921 repair:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/3_zpswyoyrvgt.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/3_zpswyoyrvgt.jpg.html)
Circled П:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/1_zpslqm29jxn.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/1_zpslqm29jxn.jpg.html)
П squared, no other repair markings:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/4_zpsq7sxgu7s.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/4_zpsq7sxgu7s.jpg.html)
П squared, multiple repairs:
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/6_zpscldok3ma.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/6_zpscldok3ma.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/5_zpshqargtsf.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/5_zpshqargtsf.jpg.html)
To further convolute the matter, some have ID’d the early marking within a circle as being a test stigma for the strength of weapons test cartridges and two circle rings as checking the strength of weapons designed to fire “Magnum” cartridges.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/8.jpg_zpsvupxz3g1.png) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Nagant%20n%20Stigma/8.jpg_zpsvupxz3g1.png.html)
So, the water in my view is still murky but is it possibly the marking means a few different things (frame inspection, firing related repair, test stigma, etc)? IMO no, markings that remain the same over long periods of time don't drastically change (overall general intent of the marking). Obviously some deviations and variations is very plausible but I would think they are all generally related. IMO though, if the П is enclosed in a square, I think it’s relatively safe to conclude it was part of a repair. Of course I could be completely wrong but from what I've seen to date, it is extremely likely the case.
Quote from: running-man on December 19, 2015, 11:13:53 AM
Interesting Bunker. So could we say that any SKS with this stigma is a confirmed refurb?
Now that's a loaded question...
The problem when talking about repair and/or refurbishment is that the arsenal form is a dated form just like any of our DoD forms, so that date means nothing. It's the actual inspection data and inspector date on the form that's relevant. When a weapon is received it goes through the fault isolation process, which involves inspection, disassembly and so forth. Sometimes nothing is wrong with the weapon or item (such as optics) but a certificate of repair is generated to indicate the weapon has been through repair/refurb. So a stamp of repair on the weapon (physically) would indicate a repair (whether minor or major) was actually performed, so in that regard I would have to say yes. Often times we see a refurb stamp on a weapon that has had very little work but nevertheless it's been through a repair facility. Just look at our WWII weapons such as the M1 Carbine. The majority of those ended up going through a repair arsenal after WWII concluded and many of them had nothing wrong with them but were still stamped. But in the case of the П squared marking, I would think when Chumak officially lists this one as a repair marking with all the supporting evidence, that pretty much sums it up. At this point he stated such but not officially (although publicly), but I personally would like to see some supporting documentation.
Quote from: Bunker on December 20, 2015, 01:40:29 AM
Now that's a loaded question...
I didn't mean to put you on the spot with that one. I know that this refurb vs. "non-refurb" subject is a very sensitive subject for many collectors as it directly affect the 'value' of their entire collection. In a way, when you make a determination like this it could easily be perceived as basically calling their baby ugly right to their face. At the same time, Chumak uses some pretty strong language in his description, though I can see your point where 'repair' might not indicate the same thing to everyone.
I'm at a loss for what remorgana (Реморгана) actually means. Any idea?
It would be interesting to see the supporting documentation. That Tver area sure seems like it was a hotbed of military activity. thumb1
A nice compilation from the TT community dealing with TT markings. This info is found on various Russian sites but this picture pulls it all together. BTW Mr. Chumak is very much involved with that community too. The translation regarding the п squared marking is as follows: “Means for passing the test firing of an increased charge of gunpowder, too unequivocal sign of overhaul.” Pretty much in line with what was posted in the earlier post. Again, another platform where the experts contend it’s in conjunction with a repair. BTW note the various “Star” OTK markings related to that subject.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/9_zpsobbyeyun.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/9_zpsobbyeyun.jpg.html)
Wow... That does break down nicely. We need to save this for sure. Very interesting.
Tula plant TsKIB COO?
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/Tula%20plant%20TsKIB%20COO/1_zpswmrbtmdm.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/Tula%20plant%20TsKIB%20COO/1_zpswmrbtmdm.jpg.html)
Have any of you seen this brand on a SKS?
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/2_zpszfz6bck0.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/2_zpszfz6bck0.jpg.html)
Quote from: Bunker on December 24, 2015, 01:44:02 AM
Have any of you seen this brand on a SKS?
That's Balakleya (Ukraine). Very common refurb mark.
Quote from: running-man on December 20, 2015, 10:40:36 AM
I'm at a loss for what remorgana (Реморгана) actually means. Any idea?
It is indeed strange that the word comes up so often, but still won't electronically translate in either Russian or Ukranian. It's very clear, though, both from context and from words like "ремонтировать" that the meaning is something akin to "overhaul".
Isn't that a foreign demilled gun?
The commercial markings look to be intended for the Russian market (or are the ones coming into Canada now done in Cyrillic letters?)
Quote from: Ol Relic on December 24, 2015, 07:49:16 AM
Quote from: Bunker on December 24, 2015, 01:44:02 AM
Have any of you seen this brand on a SKS?
That's Balakleya (Ukraine). Very common refurb mark.
I was referring to the Tula hallmark and not the repair facility.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 24, 2015, 08:21:52 AM
Isn't that a foreign demilled gun?
Yes...Ukraine. I was just curious about the hallmark, specifically the two-legged feathering and right-sided arrow head within the star.
Quote from: Ol Relic on December 24, 2015, 08:51:34 AM
The commercial markings look to be intended for the Russian market (or are the ones coming into Canada now done in Cyrillic letters?)
Supposedly this one was used by a Kremlin guard regiment. Unfortunately that's the only pic I have.
GM sent me this a while ago..
Russian shot gun, 366tkm some oddball.caliber.. Gun model VPO-208.
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/vpo-208-366tkm-ba73ea.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/vpo-208-366tkm-9be5b8.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/vpo-208-366tkm-6daa60.jpg)
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/7RQ6cXUzkjI.jpg)
Quote from: running-man on December 20, 2015, 10:40:36 AM
I'm at a loss for what remorgana (Реморгана) actually means. Any idea?
Sorry RM....I completely missed your question until I seen Ol Relic's reply. Context is everything and the entire sentence/paragraph is very important. Google translate is useless with a lot of Russian translations.
Реморгана as a standalone word (not in any sentence or context) means "repair facility". реморганов (standalone) means "the repair facilities". Now throw another word like войсковых реморганов and now that means "the troop (or the military) repair facilities". When put in a complete sentence the meaning can drastically change, as well as the complete sentence structure. The word is also used frequently in the actual Russian repair COC/structure.
Throw those in Google translate and you get "remorgana", "remorganov", and "military remorganov" respectfully. All useless translations.
Another liski with a refurb date
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=537719469
Does it look like the same stamp on the stock or is it just me?
(http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t618/toeknee221/liski%20date2_zps0debx7h1.jpg) (http://s1316.photobucket.com/user/toeknee221/media/liski%20date2_zps0debx7h1.jpg.html)
(http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t618/toeknee221/liski%20mark2_zpswwvn1hve.jpg) (http://s1316.photobucket.com/user/toeknee221/media/liski%20mark2_zpswwvn1hve.jpg.html)
Kinda looks that way dont it....
Here's a 7th GRAU @ Riga stamp on a receiver cover I have seen on an SKS:
(http://image.ibb.co/egYLWk/7th_GRAU_Riga_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/cnaCcQ/7th_GRAU_Riga_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/kuESBk/7th_GRAU_Riga.jpg)
Pretty standard marking there.
I had read on one of the various .ru websites, that Chumak & co. consider squares and rectangles to be equal to each other as far as identifying the various refurb facilities. For example, 1st GRAU @ Balakleya is both a square or a rectangle with a slash in it.
If that's the case, than this mark I just found yesterday, would also be 7th Grau @ Riga (in my opinion). thumb1
(http://image.ibb.co/g84Yj5/7th_GRAU_Riga_cover2.jpg)
Nice
I agree re: the mark in the last photo you posted running-man, it makes sense. I'm wondering why my Russian cover has no stamp to indicate refurb when the carbine obviously has been reworked at least once. It has the Nizhyn stamp as LC pointed out but it also has an obvious triangle immediately in front of the Nizhyn stamp which I believe MIGHT be the Liski stamp. I don't know what else it could be in that location.
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/Russian%20SKS%2045/Liski%20stamp_zpsbq99xcgh.jpg)
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/Russian%20SKS%2045/receiver%20%20SKS45_zps8b8l0ufy.jpg)
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/Russian%20SKS%2045/Tula%201953%20cover_zpssqrejdf0.jpg)
Some covers on obvious refurbs simply don't have any mark, even though that was the most common place for them to get stamped on an SKS45. I've also seen stamped on the barrel lug, receiver (both in front of the serial number and behind it), the stock (usually right side, but occasionally left side near the S/N, below the wrist, or even near the finger guards), the rear sight block, the front sight block and even the tip of the friggin cleaning rod. They utilized each and every square inch of the SKS it seems.
The triangle could easily be a Liski mark Danny, but it could also be one of the other 5 or 6 known number-in-a-triangle stamps too. The poor strike is very much indicative of a /1\ though. thumb1
Running-man is it common to see a carbine go through refurb more than once?
Based on the small database I've got (~800 guns), I'd say the majority have a single refurbishment stamp on them. Many have no marks beyond a simple stock swap, some have multiple refurb stamps, and the fewest out of the bunch are as-issued specimens.
Here's an example of a double refurb gun with the stamps out of different GRAU/ABVs:
(http://image.ibb.co/fs9SBk/T_1411_receiver_cover_top.jpg)
Thanks Sir.
Found a decent 5th Grau out of Alatyr the other day:
(http://image.ibb.co/mGiUrk/5th_GRAU_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/bJV9rk/5th_GRAU_Alatyr_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/czPr45/5th_GRAU_Alatyr.jpg)
I'd have guessed that this was one of the more common SKS refurb stamps, but seeing as it's the first example I've recorded, maybe not. It's certainly less common than the empty diamond.
Cool... Pretty sure I have seen these before, just never thought to save them all like you are. Good work man!
Yup, I hear that. If anyone has a nicer closeup of that 5th GRAU stamp, by all means let me know. The whole cover photo looks ok, but the closeup tile looks like fuzzy crap! rofl
RM your a stud dude, your going to break the Russian code one day I can feel it...the force is strong in this one :)
I believe that this one is distinctly different from the octagonal ABV Volga Military District @ Serbdosk that Chumak ID'd in his paper in table 1 (see 5th line from the bottom, also in in RyanE's widely used translation figure in the same location. In the translation he simply calls it "ABV При Military District @ Serbdosk", but it's all the same as ПриBO is an abbreviation for Приволжский военный округ or Volga Military District). I also don't find it in any of the unknown hex stamps charts he has noted in his postings:
(http://image.ibb.co/e2RqWk/Chumak_refurb_stamps_traw.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/djjcBk/Chumak_refurb_stamps_translated.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/hHiFxQ/unknown_russian_refurb_shops.jpg)
I've seen it stamped both upward facing and downward facing, it's a definite hexagon, not an octagon like the ABV in Serbdosk.
(http://image.ibb.co/iOPij5/H1_receiver.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/cMWkxQ/H1_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/n2kZrk/H1.jpg)
Here's an interesting one. Demil etching (maybe a laser etch?) on a Russian SKS that's still in Russia. T + O in an inverted triangle. I really think I've seen this one before somewhere...but I'm drawing a blank.
The ММГ (Макет массогабаритный, literally "model weight and dimensions" per the Google) stamp indicates this rifle is a demilled firearm. The stamp basically says that the gun complies with article 222 of the criminal code. This basically means it is no longer functional and cannot be made to function through a simple swap out of parts. The T + O in an inverted triangle is likely the shop that did the demil work. They added another serial number to the left of the triangle too, hard to see but I read Ыма0027.
(http://image.ibb.co/j5g2cQ/O633_demil_stamp.jpg)
Quote from: running-man on April 24, 2016, 01:07:58 AM
I believe that this one is distinctly different from the octagonal ABV Volga Military District @ Serbdosk that Chumak ID'd in his paper in table 1 (see 5th line from the bottom, also in in RyanE's widely used translation figure in the same location. In the translation he simply calls it "ABV При Military District @ Serbdosk", but it's all the same as ПриBO is an abbreviation for Приволжский военный округ or Volga Military District). I also don't find it in any of the unknown hex stamps charts he has noted in his postings:
I've seen it stamped both upward facing and downward facing, it's a definite hexagon, not an octagon like the ABV in Serbdosk.
I’ve been conferring with Ruslan Chumak for quite some time now and I did ask him about this symbol. Ruslan said both photos shows a symbol like the symbol АБВ Сердобск (translated - ABV Serdobsk), but it does not belong. According to his information, symbol АБВ “Сердобск” has the shape of a octagon. There are some eight and hexagonal symbols of different arsenals and ABV, similar to each other and differ only in the number of external sides of the polygon. Your specified character - one of them. This symbol is unknown to him.
He said he will consider this one for me and seek which artillery weapons base it belongs. He said he will follow-up with me but it may take a little time, but will let me know what he discovers. I’ll follow-up with a post at that time.
Awesome Bunker! I've thought many times of conversing with Chumak and have always put it off for fear of annoying him with my poor grasp of Cyrillic and/or the unsteady US/Russia relations we have going on now. It'll be interesting to see what he might come back with.
Incidentally, that's not the only unknown hexagon I've seen on Russian SKSs. The other is on his unknowns chart, second from the top in the left hand column. This one has two radii converging at the center from two separate corners. It's almost like a D0 empty diamond within the hexagon:
(http://image.ibb.co/cEWqWk/P2760_right_stock_refurb.jpg)
Quote from: running-man on May 02, 2016, 09:01:41 AM
Awesome Bunker! I've thought many times of conversing with Chumak and have always put it off for fear of annoying him with my poor grasp of Cyrillic and/or the unsteady US/Russia relations we have going on now. It'll be interesting to see what he might come back with.
Incidentally, that's not the only unknown hexagon I've seen on Russian SKSs. The other is on his unknowns chart, second from the top in the left hand column. This one has two radii converging at the center from two separate corners. It's almost like a D0 empty diamond within the hexagon:
(http://image.ibb.co/cEWqWk/P2760_right_stock_refurb.jpg)
That may be one of the other symbols he was referring to in his response. Thanks!
Just found a really neat one I've never seen before:
(http://image.ibb.co/gMCm45/D4_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/gxHaxQ/D4_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/n9BPrk/D4.jpg)
A bit similar to this one that Chumak has ID'd and I wrote down as "No 7 Leningrad, 1945", but it's clearly a different stamp:
(http://image.ibb.co/ct0Oj5/No_7_Leningrad_1945.jpg)
thumb1
Thays a weird one... Not on the list?
There we go again, answer one question and half a dozen other mysteries pop up in it's place! pullhair1 silly1
RM, Ruslan followed up with me today and said he was unable to decipher the symbol on the 1952 SKS, as well as the symbol on post #63. He looked through a lot of information and sources he has access to but was unable to decipher. He has added these symbols to the unknown symbols in his research. Unfortunately, he said sometimes it takes years to decipher some symbols.
Quote from: running-man on May 12, 2016, 12:17:20 AM
Just found a really neat one I've never seen before:
A bit similar to this one that Chumak has ID'd and I wrote down as "No 7 Leningrad, 1945", but it's clearly a different stamp:
Glad to see you heard back from him Bunker! I'm very appreciative of all the work I know goes into uncovering info from Cold War era USSR. Just being able to point out a certain mark for him to be on the lookout for is a good first step IMHO. Maybe he notices something in the future that helps connect the dots to one of his problems. Maybe some kind of breakthru on these marks happens next week, maybe it takes years, or maybe it ultimately goes unsolved; any way it turns out is ok given where the entire community was a few short years ago.
Thanks again for your willingness to reach out to him! I'd be deeply in your debt if you would keep us at SKS-Files updated if you see Ruslan publish an updated list of stigmas or generate other works that would be of interest to the community here! thumb1
X10 I love reading your updates Bunker, please keep us in the loop.....lots of great info!
Quote from: CARBINE on June 19, 2016, 11:47:15 PM
X10 I love reading your updates Bunker, please keep us in the loop.....lots of great info!
+1 clap1
Here's one I hadn't seen on an SKS before:
(http://image.ibb.co/n8fjrk/KO5287_stock.jpg)
Looks to be the third one down in this chart of Ruslan's:
(http://image.ibb.co/hHiFxQ/unknown_russian_refurb_shops.jpg)
The list grows. :))
RM seen something that indicated the /1\ symbol has been updated, so we looked into it. Yes, according to Mr. Chumak, he and his team have found new information and updated accordingly. Here is the correspondence Ruslan sent to me regarding the new information.
A symbol of belonging "in the triangle 1" changed lately. According to the new okochatelnym and most accurate information, this sign belongs to the 41 Central Artillery based weapons (41 TSABV). It was located in the city of Irkutsk. Since then, information about supplies of the sign mennyatsya will not.
Ole 'Liski' term goes bye bye. :))
Interesting
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on July 24, 2016, 10:47:55 PM
Ole 'Liski' term goes bye bye. :))
Interesting
Especially since Chumak says this one won't change again! (Google translation got a bit garbled, but that was the gist I got from the Bing translation.) thumb1
Thanks again for reaching out to get the word straight from the source Bunker! It's so much better than relying on hearsay or blindly following rumor.
I've updated RyanE's original translation of Ruslan's chart. One day I'll make my own, but until I have the time, this low res band-aid will have to do.
(http://image.ibb.co/eoXVWk/Chumak_refurb_stamps_updated.jpg)
RM, I made a chart just like that in word when Ruslan first published his work with the two additional symbols but looked high and low and can't find the file, only all the converted pics from it. If I find it, I'll send it your way.
Regarding the translation, I've been having a back and forth discussion for the last couple of hours with him and he attempted to clarify it for me due to the translation. He reworded it a couple of different ways because of the translation difficulties (depending which translator being used). Here he rephrased it for clarity due to the translation difficulties we often have. First is his words in Russian and below that the English translation. I think you have it correct but see what it says in the translator you are using to be certain.
Russian word for word:
Знак (символ) на оружии, который можно описать как "Цифра 1 внутри треугольника" - это знак 41 ЦАБВ (#41 Central artillery armament base). Эта база вооружения располагалась в городе Иркутск.
English Translation:
The sign (symbol), which can be described as the "number 1 inside the triangle" - a sign TSABV 41 (# 41 Central artillery armament base). This armament base was located in the city of Irkutsk.
He also mentioned that perhaps he will publish a book on the signs on Russian weapons, which will be the most comprehensive list of signs and images database of repair weapons. His target is the first half of next year should that materialize. Currently he has found about 80 symbols/pieces (to include the ones I relayed to him from you). Of these, he, along with his team of experts, has decrypted only about 30 and actively researching the remaining characters/symbols.
Great stuff Bunker..... great stuff. And thanks!
Quote from: running-man on November 27, 2015, 09:35:03 AM
Just fount a neat little /12\ on a Russian / Sino-Banian receiver. I had the drawing already made up, so I think this is one Chumak has already noted. I'll check and see if it's a known GRAU/ABV. thumb1
(http://image.ibb.co/kwLOj5/T12_receiver.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/nEg7Bk/T12_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/mr7QxQ/T12.jpg)
Found another /12\, this one much clearer than the previous one I found. Stamped in the exact same spot on the receiver:
(http://image.ibb.co/d3Zxu5/527_receiver.jpg)
There is also an odd looking rectangle up front before the S/N. Can't quite decide what that might be...I want to say an H in a rectangle maybe?
Quote from: running-man on April 14, 2016, 03:56:36 PM
Here's a 7th GRAU @ Riga stamp on a receiver cover I have seen on an SKS:
(http://image.ibb.co/egYLWk/7th_GRAU_Riga_cover.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/cnaCcQ/7th_GRAU_Riga_P.jpg) (http://image.ibb.co/kuESBk/7th_GRAU_Riga.jpg)
Pretty standard marking there.
I had read on one of the various .ru websites, that Chumak & co. consider squares and rectangles to be equal to each other as far as identifying the various refurb facilities. For example, 1st GRAU @ Balakleya is both a square or a rectangle with a slash in it.
If that's the case, than this mark I just found yesterday, would also be 7th Grau @ Riga (in my opinion). thumb1
(http://image.ibb.co/g84Yj5/7th_GRAU_Riga_cover2.jpg)
is 7th GRAU @ Riga stamp more common on Russian refurb SVT-40's ?
Quote from: pcke2000 on November 29, 2016, 12:25:26 AM
is 7th GRAU @ Riga stamp more common on Russian refurb SVT-40's ?
I have no idea. SVT's are certainly not my strongpoint.
Anecdotally I will say this: within 3 minutes of searching I found this image of a 7th GRAU stamped SVT. You could spend hours searching for an SKS with a 7th GRAU stamp and not find a single one I bet. I only know of the two I've already shown in my entire archive of 1500+ SKS45s...
(http://image.ibb.co/jBY7u5/5557873_03_1942_tula_svt40_russian_refurb_640.jpg)
I wonder if that stamp forward of the S/N in this image:
(http://image.ibb.co/d3Zxu5/527_receiver.jpg)
is the same as this one rotated 90°?:
(http://image.ibb.co/cixvgk/S2.jpg)
Such a poor stamp/photo that we'll likely never know for certain, but I think it's more plausible than the H within a rectangle I originally thought.
Hard to tell...
Found a few more while cataloging the late 2016 GB guns.
Here's a neat one, square with a cross within it. First one I've ever seen on an SKS, a 1952 light refurb. They got lazy with the S/N restamping and reused the OA prefix that was already there:
(http://image.ibb.co/g6bAE5/OA591_stock.jpg)
Fits well with Ruslan's seen but unknown stamps, 4th row, 2nd column:
(http://image.ibb.co/hHiFxQ/unknown_russian_refurb_shops.jpg)
One other I found (and I think we've seen before but I'm not quite certain as this thread has been going quite a while) is the cross within an octagon (7th row, 1st column in the chart above) Edit: I lie, cross within a hexagon. This one is 1827th ABV @ Nizhyn
(http://image.ibb.co/kZpDZ5/1159_stock_stamp.jpg)
(http://image.ibb.co/hiGtZ5/1827th_ABV_Nizhyn.jpg)
i just had a quick look at my sks's, my original sks with the multiple xxx'd number stock has this on the left side
(https://s2.postimg.org/nwh8c92cp/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/fqz6e3e3p/)post image online (https://postimage.org/)
so whats that one mean?
Quote from: running-man on November 29, 2016, 02:13:03 PM
(http://image.ibb.co/cixvgk/S2.jpg)
Such a poor stamp/photo that we'll likely never know for certain, but I think it's more plausible than the H within a rectangle I originally thought.
From a Russian forum thread on TT-30/33 history, this mark 'presumably is from 31st Arsenal at Ulyanovsk'.
Quote from: newchi on February 28, 2017, 08:31:55 PM
i just had a quick look at my sks's, my original sks with the multiple xxx'd number stock has this on the left side
(https://s2.postimg.org/nwh8c92cp/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/fqz6e3e3p/)post image online (https://postimage.org/)
so whats that one mean?
No idea. Those diamond stamps were quite common as acceptance stamps around the crossbolts on stocks. Occassionally you find them on other areas on refurbs. Got a photo of it?
This mark is stamped on the barrel of a 1958 "K" SKS45. It's an I.O. Palm Bay, FL. Sino-Ruso-Albanian Sneak. All matching, non-refurb in a laminate stock. As issued. I posted regarding this stamp on gunboards, but this dedicated thread is probably a better place for it:
(http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/borisbadinov/20170301_162453.jpg) (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/borisbadinov/media/20170301_162453.jpg.html)
(http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/borisbadinov/20170301_191142.jpg) (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/borisbadinov/media/20170301_191142.jpg.html)
(http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/borisbadinov/20170301_191234.jpg) (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/borisbadinov/media/20170301_191234.jpg.html)
(http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/borisbadinov/20170301_191311.jpg) (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/borisbadinov/media/20170301_191311.jpg.html)
Can just about see the 0. I suck at taking photos of these marks, dont know how you guys do it.
(https://s3.postimg.org/ieogqkfsj/IMG_4124.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dg0yc1bzj/)click image upload (https://postimage.org/)
That's not a bad photo Newchi, I see the 0 pretty clearly. On a gun like that where there are multiple XXX'd numbers, it's anybody's guess. Some stocks get stamped with pretty standard marks that we know are refurb marks in standard areas (i.e. 1st GRAU "diver down" always stamped on the right side of a refurbed stock).
I'll be on the lookout for diamond 0 marks and see if we can ID a pattern. I can't remember seeing one before though.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 01, 2017, 07:26:57 PM
This mark is stamped on the barrel of a 1958 "K" SKS45. It's an I.O. Palm Bay, FL. Sino-Ruso-Albanian Sneak. All matching, non-refurb in a laminate stock. As issued. I posted regarding this stamp on gunboards, but this dedicated thread is probably a better place for it:
First time I've seen this mark though it's tiny and likely easily overlooked. I'll keep an eye out for it and see if we can get other examples for reference. Probably a tall order, but we'll see what we can do.
I will ask this question though (not to be a jerk): How do you know that the gun is "non-refurb"? Seems to me that the mark you show could easily designate a barrel swap, or an unknown refurb stamp we haven't encountered yet, or maybe Vlad was bored one day and decided to play with various stamps. The point is, we know so little about the history of these firearms, their manufacture, their use, what actually occurred at refurb, decommissioning, and export, how can one even begin to make a determination that something is 'non-refurb'?
It really doesn't matter one way or another, we're not the terminology police here. Nobody is going to get their head chopped off for saying something is 'unissued', 'unfired', 'non-refurbed', or even for calling a Type 56 a 'Norinco'. chuckles1
I just want people to think a bit about the terms they use and realize what those terms really mean. Helps keep us better grounded as collectors in my opinion. thumb1
Thanks for your reply, RM.
I completely understand your desire for clarity.
By non-refurb I mean none of the telltale nor less conspicuous signs of refurbishment: No stamps, paint, forcematching, or obvious scrubbing. Some of the ep serials are faded, but still legible and all matching.
Also the late date of manufacture and the impending Albanian split with the Kremlin leave a very narrow window for the possibility of re-arsenal. With 1958 signaling the end of Soviet sks production-- AK47 now adequately stockpiled and in robust production-- it would seem more likely that this particular carbine found its way to Albania soon after manufacture or at least before it required re-arsenaling.
Many of the SKS45's were re-arsenaled prior to their addition to the Albanian Stockpiles. I have two such early rifles. 1950 and 1953-54. Both with various signs of Soviet refurbishment. But nary a one can be found on this "K" letter rifle.
I imagine this particular stamp might have been added in Albania. But given the lack of evidence for a structured, formalized Albanian re-arsenal program, I can't see how this mark would indicate refurbishment.
(Though I have begun to suspect that there are some overlooked, ad hoc indicators of in-the-field maintenance performed on the Sino-Albanain carbines.)
This particular stamp/etching was apparently applied by someone with a fairly high degree of skill. But given it's rougher quality, does not suggest attribution to a formal refurb program.
Edit: The barrel swap also occured to me early on. But it's a matching number pair on the receiver flat and barrel lug.
It can be tricky.
The stock i posted above, you would think came from a refurb, but there are no refurb marks.
But HA! you say, its a replacement stock. Well we cant say that for sure. I dont know if the gun had a different stock before, all the evidence at hand says, is this stock had a different gun before.
If there was a hippy smiley, i would put it here.
Quote from: newchi on March 02, 2017, 06:50:45 PM
It can be tricky.
The stock i posted above, you would think came from a refurb, but there are no refurb marks.
But HA! you say, its a replacement stock. Well we cant say that for sure. I dont know if the gun had a different stock before, all the evidence at hand says, is this stock had a different gun before.
If there was a hippy smiley, i would put it here.
The stock is not original for sure
Quote from: newchi on March 02, 2017, 06:50:45 PM
It can be tricky.
The stock i posted above, you would think came from a refurb, but there are no refurb marks.
But HA! you say, its a replacement stock. Well we cant say that for sure. I dont know if the gun had a different stock before, all the evidence at hand says, is this stock had a different gun before.
If there was a hippy smiley, i would put it here.
I guess I don't follow you. Are you trying to say that you can't know that the stock on your gun isn't original to it? Or that you can't tell whether your gun is refurbed because it doesn't have a refurb mark?
While there are limits to what we can know, there are certain things we can positively tell just based on our observations. Multiple XXX'd locations on a stock define the number of times the stock has been swapped from one gun to another because there is a definitive different S/N under each of the XX's. On yours I read a ГO as one of the XX'd prefixes and a П-something on the other. Neither of these match your ЮH. It's very likely that the ГO was the original stamping on the 1952 built stock (since it is in the proper location where an as-issued stamping should be and I have other 1952 ГO guns in the registry), then the П-something came later, and finally your ЮH last.
When the same stock was paired back with it's original carbine and didn't need wholeale sanding and refinishing the Russians typically left the original S/N on and either refinished right over it, or if it was partially unreadable they stamped the same S/N in another location on the stock.
I am saying , who says there was ever a stock at all for this gun? there is no evidence it wasnt just a barrelled receiver sitting in a corner until this stock came along. We do have evidence this stock had other guns (unless the guy with the stamps was seriously drunk/dyslexic and made 3 typos.)
Of course, you have to go with most likely assumptions, it had to be new at some point and have its own stock.
Quote from: newchi on March 03, 2017, 08:39:13 AM
I am saying , who says there was ever a stock at all for this gun? there is no evidence it wasnt just a barrelled receiver sitting in a corner until this stock came along. We do have evidence this stock had other guns (unless the guy with the stamps was seriously drunk/dyslexic and made 3 typos.)
Of course, you have to go with most likely assumptions, it had to be new at some point and have its own stock.
Your hypothesis is flawed as there is indeed evidence that the Russians didn't stamp a S/N on a firearm until it was finalized. One can quickly get into the realm of ridiculousness (How do we know the gun was built by the Russians? How do we know it was intended to be a gun? etc.)
Typically the burden of proof is for the data to disprove the null hypothesis, and very often it does. In the absence of data, however, the null hypothesis is assumed true until data comes along that contradicts it or requires a modification to some alternative hypothesis. In this instance, there is zero data that the Russians produced firearms w/o stocks.
Actually i have a hypothesis i would love to try and prove but i doubt anyone has ever recorded the data to try and do it.
If yer looking for SKS data, this is the site to come to. I think you have to get your post count up to a certain number before the data pages open up.
...however, in the meantime I would love to hear your hypothesis.
if it's off topic, though, you might consider starting a new thread.
Quote from: newchi on March 03, 2017, 03:15:44 PM
Actually i have a hypothesis i would love to try and prove but i doubt anyone has ever recorded the data to try and do it.
Im listening. bat1
:))
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 01, 2017, 07:26:57 PM
This mark is stamped on the barrel of a 1958 "K" SKS45. It's an I.O. Palm Bay, FL. Sino-Ruso-Albanian Sneak. All matching, non-refurb in a laminate stock. As issued. I posted regarding this stamp on gunboards, but this dedicated thread is probably a better place for it:
(http://i1153.photobucket.com/albums/p515/borisbadinov/20170301_162453.jpg) (http://s1153.photobucket.com/user/borisbadinov/media/20170301_162453.jpg.html)
is this similar, at least the E part?
(http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/misc_marks/tentE_martin08_001.jpg)
From a Russian forum, some people think the symbol from 2nd GRAU Arsenal (identified by Rusland Chumak) at Kiev is actually from 103th Arsenal at Saransk.
Any opinions? Thank you.
[/quote]
is this similar, at least the E part?
(http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/misc_marks/tentE_martin08_001.jpg)
[/quote]
Kinda, but not really. Although your observation opens up the consideration that the stamp is an incomplete or light strike-- where the "F" could be and "E". Overall, though, they don't appear to be related.
Is this /\E on a Soviet Sneak? On the barrel?
Hallmark does not belong to the arsenal of 31 (Ulyanovsk). This arsenal was under the command of the Navy and
never repaired small arms. In the arsenal of 31 weapons were stored -- ammunition maritime and marine guns.
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 28, 2017, 09:58:05 PM
Quote from: running-man on November 29, 2016, 02:13:03 PM
(http://image.ibb.co/cixvgk/S2.jpg)
Such a poor stamp/photo that we'll likely never know for certain, but I think it's more plausible than the H within a rectangle I originally thought.
From a Russian forum thread on TT-30/33 history, this mark 'presumably is from 31st Arsenal at Ulyanovsk'.
Stigma often found on Soviet weapons of different models - on Mosin Nagant revolvers, SKS Carbine and some other samples of weapons. This sign belongs to an arsenal but authentically is still undefined as of today. BTW...for those interested in this kind of stuff, Ruslan's book will be published this year (2017). He had hoped it would be out already but there was a delay.
Quote from: running-man on February 28, 2017, 11:08:08 PM
Quote from: newchi on February 28, 2017, 08:31:55 PM
i just had a quick look at my sks's, my original sks with the multiple xxx'd number stock has this on the left side
(https://s2.postimg.org/nwh8c92cp/image.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/fqz6e3e3p/)post image online (https://postimage.org/)
so whats that one mean?
No idea. Those diamond stamps were quite common as acceptance stamps around the crossbolts on stocks. Occassionally you find them on other areas on refurbs. Got a photo of it?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 05, 2017, 03:36:50 AM
Is this /\E on a Soviet Sneak? On the barrel?
it was on a mosin page, i was trying to identify a mark on mine and it reminded me of that one.
Theres so many marks that dont get struck evenly on a round surface i thought it was worth a mention.
http://www.russian-mosin-nagant.com/misc_marks/
Quote from: Bunker on March 05, 2017, 06:26:43 AM
Hallmark does not belong to the arsenal of 31 (Ulyanovsk). This arsenal was under the command of the Navy and never repaired small arms. In the arsenal of 31 weapons were stored -- ammunition maritime and marine guns.
Finally found this mark in a clear example on an SKS. 100% Verified both through features and S/N prefix as a 1950 built gun.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/coayo8aldvihp09/S2.jpg)
(https://image.ibb.co/n8jLja/CO1121_right_lug.jpg)
Right barrel lug has another mark we've seen before:
(https://image.ibb.co/feft4a/CO1121_right_lug2.jpg)
All around interesting gun!
As a side note, Russian websites have interesting information, but as Bunker proves with 31 Ulyanovsk being under command of the Navy and not being a small arms repair depot, in the end it's just a bunch of "he said/she said" arguments from a bunch of Russian guys that may or may not contain errors with no easy way for us to verify or even really communicate with them to find their sources (if any). About the only thing I really trust is the work coming from Ruslan, and as we've seen with the Liski /1\ mark, he can be wrong too.
Quote from: Bunker on March 05, 2017, 06:45:25 AM
BTW...for those interested in this kind of stuff, Ruslan's book will be published this year (2017). He had hoped it would be out already but there was a delay.
Any word on this book?
Quote from: newchi on July 23, 2017, 10:46:24 AM
Quote from: Bunker on March 05, 2017, 06:45:25 AM
BTW...for those interested in this kind of stuff, Ruslan's book will be published this year (2017). He had hoped it would be out already but there was a delay.
Any word on this book?
He is having an issue with the publisher but hopes to have it published before the end of the year.
Ruslan just issued this correction to one of the brands. Here is what he wrote publicly:
"Dear colleagues! I want to correct my previous mistake: the brand "1 in the triangle" does not belong to the ABV 1871 (Liski), but 41 to the CAAB (Irkutsk). The error occurred because the investigation of this stigma was carried out by my friend who found the binoculars with this brand and looked at his form in the repair record, considered that it belongs to the first record when there were two such records. And the repair date corresponded to the second record. But I told the first. The information was sent to the publication, and at that moment everything appeared and there was nothing to fix. Accordingly, the question of the belonging of the said emblem is again "frozen". And in the winter of 2014, I had to go to Iruktsk for 109 ars, where I investigated, including the issue of this arsenal (in the past 41 CABA). What was my surprise when the master of the OTK of the workshop on small arms repair told me that their brand is "1 in a triangle", and it is at this same time that they stencil on boxes with passing weapons. Later it was also pinned to others, in a documentary way. In general, this "1 in the triangle" - 41 VABA (109 ars GRAU), Irkutsk."
Quote from: Bunker on July 24, 2017, 09:12:00 PM
Ruslan just issued this correction to one of the brands. Here is what he wrote publicly:
"Dear colleagues! I want to correct my previous mistake: the brand "1 in the triangle" does not belong to the ABV 1871 (Liski), but 41 to the CAAB (Irkutsk). The error occurred because the investigation of this stigma was carried out by my friend who found the binoculars with this brand and looked at his form in the repair record, considered that it belongs to the first record when there were two such records. And the repair date corresponded to the second record. But I told the first. The information was sent to the publication, and at that moment everything appeared and there was nothing to fix. Accordingly, the question of the belonging of the said emblem is again "frozen". And in the winter of 2014, I had to go to Iruktsk for 109 ars, where I investigated, including the issue of this arsenal (in the past 41 CABA). What was my surprise when the master of the OTK of the workshop on small arms repair told me that their brand is "1 in a triangle", and it is at this same time that they stencil on boxes with passing weapons. Later it was also pinned to others, in a documentary way. In general, this "1 in the triangle" - 41 VABA (109 ars GRAU), Irkutsk."
Thank you very much for the info! Do you know if there's anyone in Russia doing systematic studies on refurb marks on their military optics (e.g. binoculars)? I found some refurb marks used on SKS were also stamped on them. Thanks a lot!
Quote from: pcke2000 on July 25, 2017, 12:38:37 AM
Thank you very much for the info! Do you know if there's anyone in Russia doing systematic studies on refurb marks on their military optics (e.g. binoculars)? I found some refurb marks used on SKS were also stamped on them. Thanks a lot!
I believe many of the marks that Ruslan has found come from non-firearm items like optics, crates, and the paperwork that is associated with them. From what I've read, it is quite hard for a typical Russian citizen to get their hands on surplus USSR firearms so naturally they collect and research things they can get their hands on like binoculars.
Hers something i found, translated a few bits relevant to us.
Disclaimer: i use each of these words interchangeably
works/plant/factory
stamp/stigma/hallmark
Also, some of the stamps we dont see on guns i assume were used on other products they made.
oh, and this is somewhat izhevsk centric on the second page, i believe thats where it came from
(http://preview.ibb.co/d4MmZv/1246297.jpg) (http://ibb.co/hfPjMa)
(http://image.ibb.co/bFY0uv/1246305.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dZRLuv)
I've updated all my posts in this thread (ad any replies that may have sourced said broken images) to point to actual photographs again (thanks photobucket! your#1)
Still on the lookout for various different Russian Markings. I have a few newish ones in the queue that I need to make tiles for, but nothing earthshattering as of late.
Just a quick update regarding Ruslan Chumak's book. Recently he published his book about the creation of the Mosin rifle, which is an excellent book for those interested in the Mosin. I highly recommend it.
http://www.atlant-tpg.ru/3-ln_vintovka_mosina_istoriya_sozdaniya%20i_prinyatiya_na_vooruzhenie_russkoj_armii.html
His My next book to be published is on the topic that we are particularly interested in - about stamps and different markings on Russian and Soviet weapons. The publishing house that publishes the books he authors insists that he finish the work on this new book as soon as possible and next year has plans to publish it. Ruslan is now making the latest additions to the text of the manuscript and at the beginning of next year (2018), he plans to hand over the manuscript to the publishing house. So hopefully his book will be available for purchase in the next few months.
Bunker! Good to hear from you again.
Yes yes.... Please keep us informed! thumb1