So recently Pcke2000 posted the following:
Quote from: pcke2000 on December 07, 2015, 07:00:30 AM
Tula star on rear sight is one of early production characters (up to 1952), but not so rare. And it indicates the rear sight on your carbine is a replacement.
Russian SKS45s are really not my strongpoint. I'd say I know an order of magnitude more about type 56's than I do about Russians, but that doesn't mean I can't learn! I thought it would be interesting to see what we can tease from the data SKS-Files has on hand of the guns located in our Russian SKS survey (the list is located in the Russian Serial Data board under the Breaking the Russian Cyrillic Prefix code (https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=780.0)) and see if we can help corroborate Pcke's observations. I personally think Pcke is probably on to something, but of course, it's always best to just present the data and see what conclusions we can draw from them. (click on any image to enlarge)
1949 Tula guns. These guns are all refurbished to some degree or not, as such they are really only 'probable' '49s though a good many have correct spike bayos which is the one feature not seen on a transitional '50. These RSLs have a distinct numeral 4, I'm going to categorize them as "RSL #1" going forward to be able to keep track of them. We see several instances of the star on the RSL (click on a photo to enlarge):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1949_Tula/781_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1949_Tula/BO1003_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1949_Tula/HM1949_RSL.jpeg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1949_Tula/O1667_RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1949_Tula/OB986_rear_sight_ladder.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1949_Tula/P926_bolt_carrier.jpg)
1950 Tula guns. I have a surprisingly small number of '50 as-issued guns in my list. Unfortunately, of this small number of guns, I find exactly one carbine that shows the RSL. Interestingly enough, the 'transitional' 50's that I have in the database appear to have "RSL #1" types, but most everything else seems to have a different RSL type that has a noticeable different numeral 4. I'm going to characterize these as "RSL #2" going forward. I don't know that the following photo is good enough to conclusively determine that the star is not there, but I sure don't see one after blowing it up:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/H2618_bolt_carrier.jpg)
The '50 refurbs continue the pattern seen in the '49s with many RSL stars. These RSLs run the spectrum, they are blued, stripped of bluing and reblued (almost parkerized look), and painted.
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/222_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/665_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/1171_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/1932_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/KB1499_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/M2750_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/P1353_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/P2056_bolt_carrier1.jpg)
I also found a good deal of them either w/o RSL stars or that were simply unclear.
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/TK2228_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/796_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/T1409_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/T1458_bolt_carrier.jpg)
This one could easily be a scrubbed star, but the photo isn't of good enough resolution to say for certain:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1950_Tula/1235_rear_sight_ladder.jpg)
1951 Tula guns. Quite a few more as-issued '51's and we see the star on most of them. Again these are "RSL #2" types as the 4’s are dead giveaways:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/AB540_rear_sight_ladder.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/AB4631_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/B4798_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/HA810_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/MP2716_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/4802_bolt_carrier2.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/2546_RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/A2997_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/B1711_RSL.jpg)
I also found a couple ones I'd chalk up to 'uncertain' as the detail is poor, but they could have stars, or they might not:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/BC2836_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1951_Tula/H2212_top.jpg)
The refurbs follow the exact same pattern as the '50s did, lots of stars, lots of non stars, lots of uncertains. No need to post these as they are identical to the 50's.
1952 Tula guns. There are a similar number of as-issued '52s as there are '51s. Again the majority seem to have the RSL star and they are all "RSL #2" types.
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1952_Tula/794_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1952_Tula/CO1431_bolt_carrier3.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1952_Tula/CO1431_rear_sight_ladder.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1952_Tula/CP3001_RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1952_Tula/H2151_rear_sight_ladder.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1952_Tula/MO370_RSL.jpg)
There was also an uncertain one in there, could easily be remnants of a star below and to the right of the battle sight П
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1952_Tula/CB1209_bolt_carrier.jpg)
The refurbs follow the exact same pattern as the '50s & 51's did, lots of stars, lots of non stars, lots of uncertains.
1953 Tula guns. We see a major change with the ’53 guns. RSL stars are gone. Additionally, all the RSLs have a totally different front on the 4’s indicating another version of RSL, the "RSL #3":
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/B2906_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/B5074_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/E4593_RSB.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/HA4601_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/K2665_RSB.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/KA6238_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/KT5188_rear_sight_ladder.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Tula/PE1805_bolt_carrier.jpg)
I can find star marked RSLs in the refurb category, but all are on "RSL #1s" or "RSL #2s".
1953 Izkevsk guns. Very few of these exist and even fewer that are as-issued. I only found this unknown RSL type and I don’t see a star stamp on it:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1953_Izhevsk/P367_bolt_carrier.jpg)
1954 Tula guns. As with the ’53 Tulas, the ’54 guns don’t seem to have any star stamped RSLs on any as-issued guns. Additionally, the RSL seems to be an "RSL #3" type:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Tula/C297_rear_sight_ladder.jpg)
There could be a different RSL on some of these ’54 guns (hard to really tell from this photo, but I definitely have observed an "RSL #4" out there):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Tula/T7577_bolt_carrier.jpg)
1954 Izhevsk guns. Again, very few as-issued examples are in the database, though many more than ’53 Izhevsks. This one is a bit interesting in that it appears there could be a difference in the dual Cyrillic prefixed ‘54s and the single prefix/number/single suffix guns. Of course with only a single data point of comparison, that’s a pretty weak claim:
Dual prefix, no star, possibly "RSL #4":
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Izhevsk/HP533_bolt_carrier.jpeg)
Single prefix/number/single suffix, no star, "RSL #3":
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Izhevsk/93__RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Izhevsk/466_X_RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Izhevsk/B787__RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1954_Izhevsk/O237_C_bolt_carrier.jpg)
1955 Tula guns. 1955 as-issued guns are like hens teeth. I do have a few refurbs (which are also quite uncommon) that are pretty inconclusive and really can’t tell us much about what may or may not have originally been on the gun. I see mainly "RSL #3" in these:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1955_Tula/C6073_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1955_Tula/C6073_RSL.jpg)
1956 Tula guns. It was somewhat hard to find a true as-issued gun, but they are out there with "RSL #3":
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1956_Tula/K2317__right_lug.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1956_Tula/H2997__bolt_carrier.jpg)
And of course, quite a few refurbs with various differing flavors of RSLs. These ones had the identical 4’s as the above, so I think they are original to this series:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1956_Tula/KP2643__bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1956_Tula/KP6338__RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1956_Tula/TO5845__RSL.jpg)
1957 Tula guns. Basically the same as ‘56s. Again "RSL #3s" on these. The as-issued guns:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/AH835__bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/BM5559__rear_sight_ladder.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/BO7991__bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/O1406__bolt_carrier.jpg)
And again quite a few refurbs, with varying RSLs:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/AT3485__RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/BM767__RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/K3216__RSL.jpg)
Of course, earlier version RSLs can still be seen on heavy refurbs:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1957_Tula/M4202__bolt_carrier.jpg)
1958 Tula guns. Looks like more RSL #3s in this series. This would make sense if the letter run was a assembly line restart for the purpose of using up old stock already in inventory and to provide a training platform for the Chinese, Romanians, Yugos and the like for the build of their SKSs. As-issued:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1958_Tula/O6930_K_RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1958_Tula/O2984_K_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1958_Tula/O7332_K_RSL.jpg)
Refurbs:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1958_Tula/O4126_K_RSL.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1958_Tula/C3115_K_bolt_carrier.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1958_Tula/P6627_K_bolt_carrier.jpg)
Heck, there are even "RSL #1s" with stars on them:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/1958_Tula/T8228_K_RSL.jpg)
So what does this all tell us? I think the star stamp is correlated to the early-font RSL. The RSL #3s through #5s don't seem to have it, they tend to have a /T&K\, [T&K), or [T&K] (where the T&K are combined together in a single letter). What any of those stamps mean....I'm open to suggestions. thumb1
Edit: The early mid late convention I was using was really bugging me. I decided to change the nomenclature of the RSLs. This is what we appear to have:
RSL #1, 1949 and 1950 Transitionals:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_1a.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_1b.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_1c.jpg)
RSL #2, 1950 - 1952:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_2a.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_2b.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_2c.jpg)
RSL #3, 1953 - 1958:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_3a.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_3b.jpg)
RSL #4, Found on an early two prefix '54 Izhevsk.
It might be an RSL #3, but I think it's different (no, it's defintiely different, look at the 3's):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_4a.jpg)
and Finally RSL #5. This came off a late '54 Izhevsk Sino-Banian that was well worn and the pedigree is totally unknown. Could be a worn #4 or a Chinese part for all we know, but it is significantly different than anything seen before:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_5a.jpg)
Its interesting that not all early guns have it... Being random further leads me to believe its an inspection stamp just as the others seen in the same location.
Its good to see the compiled data... Wish we could have seen pke put it together.
Maybe we should be looking at different spots on the rifle too.... my Russian sneak had that same stamp, that same size, on the right side of the receiver under the stock line.
Quote from: Power Surge on December 12, 2015, 10:32:36 PM
Maybe we should be looking at different spots on the rifle too.... my Russian sneak had that same stamp, that same size, on the right side of the receiver under the stock line.
Yup, It was bad enough going through 600+ guns worth of photos to compile just the RSL star stamps. Hard part about a stamp that's not easily visible when the gun is together is 99% of the common photos taken of these guns simply won't show them. You'd need to get them from boards where members knew what they were looking for as opposed to auctions where a pawn shop is just trying to show the basic shots and make their $$.
As an aside, there are indeed star stamps on early Chinese too such as those infamous "Sino-Soviet" star stock stamp marks that *proved* something or another way back when. They could mean the same thing across countries (like we think for circle O, circle Y etc. on the barrel lugs) or they might not. The marks were put there for a reason though.
I think it's no coincidence that with the advent of the newer stye RSL the the mark changed though...
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 12, 2015, 10:30:47 PM
Its interesting that not all early guns have it... Being random further leads me to believe its an inspection stamp just as the others seen in the same location.
Its good to see the compiled data... Wish we could have seen pke put it together.
I don't think it's as random as you do. I think the ones that are 'missing' probably have them (it was only a handful of as-issued out of many examples that simply didn't have that mark, and some are probably the result of inconclusive photos. I do know that there are occasions where the star is half hidden under the sight adjusting slider tabs, so maybe there are also occasions where the star is completely hidden by those tabs too. Makes me wonder if that mark was put on the sight itself (off the gun) or if it was stamped while the sight was on the gun, but the slider simply moved up out of the way...
Pcke has learned a heck of a lot in the brief time he's been hitting Russian SKSs hard. This may be a subject that many have gone over in the past and come to some conclusion (or not, it's impossible to really tell what's been thoroughly researched and what's been declared as fact by the SKS gods because they said so. His observation is a darned good one and I think the data shows he's spot on with his '52 and earlier call. thumb1
You know me... I hate assuming they 'must' have them and just chalk it up to bad pics or they are under the sliders. Def worth the effort of more data
Lots of marks on these guns we will likely never know the meaning of.
RM, thank you very much for your kind words and posting so many interesting pictures. As I mentioned before, I am still a newbie and open to different opinions and theories.
The very first time when I noticed this Star was when I did online research for my first SVT-40. It looks like all Tula-made SVT-40s have this Star (or at least very similar in shape, the size could be smaller though) on the major parts, this observation has been well known among SVT-40 collectors. It led to my speculation that this Star on SKS RSLs may represent Tula arsenal too.
I don't have many Russian SKS's in my collection, but I do like studying pictures posted on online forums and online auction sites.
I am looking forward to more comments and opinions on this topic.
Yeah, definitely lots of WAGs on my part for certain. I was surprised as to how consistent the star stamps actually were though. They remind me of the "delta" mark on the left side of the early Chinese receiver rounds; they are that consistent. I'd never really paid much attention to them before, it's always good to take a second look at things and see what comes up. thumb1
I dunno about calling it a 'tula' star either... Like, where's the arrow? We have other stamps just as small with letters and numbers inside etc. Just looks like an inspection stamp of some sort to me. If it dont have the star, it has one of the others.... Always one of the versions there.
Quote from: pcke2000 on December 12, 2015, 11:25:21 PM
RM, thank you very much for your kind words and posting so many interesting pictures. As I mentioned before, I am still a newbie and open to different opinions and theories.
The very first time when I noticed this Star was when I did online research for my first SVT-40. It looks like all Tula-made SVT-40s have this Star (or at least very similar in shape, the size could be smaller though) on the major parts, this observation has been well known among SVT-40 collectors. It led to my speculation that this Star on SKS RSLs may represent Tula arsenal too.
I don't have many Russian SKS's in my collection, but I do like studying pictures posted on online forums and online auction sites.
I am looking forward to more comments and opinions on this topic.
No problem man. It often takes a question that many people simply dismiss to get the ball rolling on topics such as these. We may never have the answers, and it's certainly possible that others have pondered and perhaps even solved this problem before us, but we'll never know if we don't try. Now that it's something I'm on the lookout for, I'm sure more examples will turn up. thumb1
Been seeing them for years.... Never much thought into it.
Quote from: running-man on December 12, 2015, 11:31:18 PM
Quote from: pcke2000 on December 12, 2015, 11:25:21 PM
RM, thank you very much for your kind words and posting so many interesting pictures. As I mentioned before, I am still a newbie and open to different opinions and theories.
The very first time when I noticed this Star was when I did online research for my first SVT-40. It looks like all Tula-made SVT-40s have this Star (or at least very similar in shape, the size could be smaller though) on the major parts, this observation has been well known among SVT-40 collectors. It led to my speculation that this Star on SKS RSLs may represent Tula arsenal too.
I don't have many Russian SKS's in my collection, but I do like studying pictures posted on online forums and online auction sites.
I am looking forward to more comments and opinions on this topic.
No problem man. It often takes a question that many people simply dismiss to get the ball rolling on topics such as these. We may never have the answers, and it's certainly possible that others have pondered and perhaps even solved this problem before us, but we'll never know if we don't try. Now that it's something I'm on the lookout for, I'm sure more examples will turn up. thumb1
Uhhhh... I questioned this same stamp on my sneek trying to see if we could ID Tula made guns without needing the receiver cover.... and you guys dismissed it.
I remember PS.... I just dont know how much 'importance' needs to go into it. With the vast array of rework methods and locations.... Anything russian or early chinese can have them.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 12, 2015, 11:30:26 PM
I dunno about calling it a 'tula' star either... Like, where's the arrow? We have other stamps just as small with letters and numbers inside etc. Just looks like an inspection stamp of some sort to me. If it dont have the star, it has one of the others.... Always one of the versions there.
I understand that there's no arrow in the star. I didn't create the term 'Tula Star', it has been used by SVT-40 collectors for a long time though.
I'll dig around some and get some pics.....the star shows up a plenty on mosins IIRC. For sure on the rsl also. I could lean toward it being an inspectors stamp or a Tula stamp....or maybe a Tula Inspectors stamp :)). On the sight leaf I don't think much about it but when it starts showing up on mosin parts where the arsenal stamps usually are, it gets me to thinking ( it will be a much smaller star in some of those cases). Mosins parts, down to the smallest lil bit, all have an arsenal stamp. In the case of the Finnish mosins, you can have all different types and years of different arsenals stamps when say compared to a standard M 91/30 will just have a certain time frame. I seem to remember seeing it on a '44 Izzy Nagant revolver's trigger as well. ( I'm still kicking myself for not getting that 1)
I'm interested in seeing what info turns up on the subject....but I'm a touch ocd too ( ya gotta feed the beast rofl)
I looked at all my as-issued russians and here is what I found,
49'-52' Tula all have star
49'-58' Tula have some sort of stamp whether it be a circle with a K in it or triangle with a letter in it can't tell what it is K-R-TR not sure, there also is a square with K in it......
53'-54' Izhevsk absolutely no markings at all.................something to look into!!
Quote from: Power Surge on December 12, 2015, 11:46:12 PM
Uhhhh... I questioned this same stamp on my sneek trying to see if we could ID Tula made guns without needing the receiver cover.... and you guys dismissed it.
Laugh, but nobody likes you Sal! fart1
j/k man, You did ask it way back here: https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1422.0
And here's your photo:
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r119/PowerSurgePerf/Russian%20sneak/20150717_192341_zpsetgudyyw.jpg)
I had nothing to add to it back then I'm afraid. I'm not really certain I can add to it right now, but taking a RM WAG: I'd say that your RSL is a RSL #2 based on the additions I made to the original post this morning. If it's original to the gun, then the gun is likely a '52, although perhaps it's a very early '53 as well using up the last of the '52 RSL #2s.
(http://i142.photobucket.com/albums/r119/PowerSurgePerf/Russian%20sneak/20150717_192500_zpsapuawhvi.jpg)
It's interesting to note that one of the other PИ guns I have in the survey (sino-banian again), PИ1578 has this as the RSL, RSL #3 with a star and a /T&K\. First one of those I've seen:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/P1578_RSL.jpg~original)
Quote from: CARBINE on December 13, 2015, 11:34:15 AM
I looked at all my as-issued russians and here is what I found,
49'-52' Tula all have star
49'-58' Tula have some sort of stamp whether it be a circle with a K in it or triangle with a letter in it can't tell what it is K-R-TR not sure, there also is a square with K in it......
53'-54' Izhevsk absolutely no markings at all.................something to look into!!
Nothing on the Izhevsks at all!? Can you snap some photos of your Ishevsk RSLs for us? It'll be interesting to see where they fit in the RSL #1-5 progression
My rear sight has the star but this sight was obviously added during a refurb.
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/Russian%20SKS%2045/Rear%20sight_zps5zk9gu6k.jpg)
(http://i1254.photobucket.com/albums/hh618/smithdblueDannyboy53/Russian%20SKS%2045/Russian%20star%20rear%20sight%20leaf_zps8lryk3fp.jpg)
Some of these stars are smaller than others.
1954 Izhevsk: nothing on the top of the rear sight leaf but many stamps on the back.
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/54%20Izhevsk%20SKS/IMG_2552.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/54%20Izhevsk%20SKS/IMG_2552.jpg.html)
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/54%20Izhevsk%20SKS/IMG_2553.jpg) (http://s1191.photobucket.com/user/phosphorus32/media/54%20Izhevsk%20SKS/IMG_2553.jpg.html)
No. 66, 314 and 536 all used the star stamp and possibly No. 535 and perhaps others, and it was used on several different weapons. Without a doubt a Tula specific brand and very likely tied to the OTC.
The TK stamp (and all the variations) is an OTK markings and documented in a few good credible books.
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 13, 2015, 02:28:13 PM
1954 Izhevsk: nothing on the top of the rear sight leaf but many stamps on the back.
Izhevsks most certainly have a different RSL than the Tulas do. Look at the difference in the 3's between yours and a 52-58 Tula Jon. thumb1
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/54%20Izhevsk%20SKS/IMG_2552.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_3a.jpg~original)
Quote from: running-man on December 14, 2015, 12:14:01 AM
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 13, 2015, 02:28:13 PM
1954 Izhevsk: nothing on the top of the rear sight leaf but many stamps on the back.
Izhevsks most certainly have a different RSL than the Tulas do. Look at the difference in the 3's between yours and a 52-58 Tula Jon. thumb1
(http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z475/phosphorus32/54%20Izhevsk%20SKS/IMG_2552.jpg)(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/russian/examples/RSL_3a.jpg~original)
Yup, that's a clear difference. The weight of the lines are distinctly heavier in the Tulas, if that is consistently observed.
The number fonts are different too, most noticeably the 3 and the 5.
The fonts are dif on all the dif variations RM broke down.... thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 12, 2015, 11:30:26 PM
I dunno about calling it a 'tula' star either... Like, where's the arrow? We have other stamps just as small with letters and numbers inside etc. Just looks like an inspection stamp of some sort to me. If it dont have the star, it has one of the others.... Always one of the versions there.
The “Star” marking is synonymous with Tula weapons from very early on. I would consider this a Technological hallmark, much like the Tula hammer. Although governed by the OTC, I wouldn’t really call this an OTC marking. To differentiate, the “TK” (Teh Control) marking for example could be considered an OTC acceptance marking, where it generally only appears once for a very specific purpose. As an example, here is a 1941 Nagant and you’ll notice the “Star” appears in multiple locations and was applied during the production process. I've seen some weapons with no "Star" marking and others that it likely wore off, so not sure what that tells us about the significance of the marking? There are different types of inspectors and associated stamps (e.g., tester, passer, master…technological, OTC…etc) and sorting this out is no easy task, even if you have several good Russian books on the subject.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/1_zpseokeecdx.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/1_zpseokeecdx.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/2_zps8mmnyekd.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/2_zps8mmnyekd.jpg.html)(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/4_zpstil60rzc.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/4_zpstil60rzc.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/3_zpswd74ys7d.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/3_zpswd74ys7d.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/5_zpsjvbrg6gm.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/1941%20Nagant%20Tula%20Gospriemka/5_zpsjvbrg6gm.jpg.html)
QuoteThere are different types of inspectors and associated stamps (e.g., tester, passer, master…technological, OTC…etc) and sorting this out is no easy task, even if you have several good Russian books on the subject.
Precisely, this stamp can represent literally anything and although it came out of tula, its not necessarily a 'tula' star in the way the main arsenal stamp represents. When you take in account all the little parts it takes to make an sks, if this stamp means the part was 'made at tula', my simple question is.... Where are all the other stars on all the other parts?
I see your point LC bit I still think it's likely a Tula star like an R on a Remington part is a Remington R, or an E is an Eddystone part for American firearms. Why only this part has a star? Perhaps the scarcity of Tula stars on SKS parts is due to the extensive serialization of parts on an SKS, such that marking them with a star was superfluous. Tula Mosins have a plethora of star marked parts (e.g., barrel bands, various bolt parts, but not all parts). However, this is on a series of rifles with only four serialized parts.
Good stuff! thumb1
The one thing I'll add is that this 'Tula star' (or maybe we should call it a minor star to distinguish it from a proper arsenal mark Tula star on the receiver cover or the mid sized star on the receiver of letter suffix guns) generally appears to be a single stamp on the top of the RSL and the RSL is either version #1 or version #2. The mark is pretty consistently across these components.
A select few of the later RSL #2s have a star marking in conjunction with some type of T+K marking, maybe indicating that these markings do indeed mean different things.
In '53 with the advent of RSL #3, the star mark is simply gone. Oftentimes it is replaced with a circle T+K, oval T+K, square T+K, triangle T+K, or a rectangle T+K, though some RSLs have no markings on top. Did the T+K mark take over for the minor star marking? Did some other mark under the RSL take over for the star mark and the T+K mark is exactly the same as on the later RSL #2s? We're like blind puppies flailing around in the dark on this one and it is one we might never know the answer to, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless.
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 20, 2015, 09:16:35 AM
I see your point LC bit I still think it's likely a Tula star like an R on a Remington part is a Remington R, or an E is an Eddystone part for American firearms. Why only this part has a star? Perhaps the scarcity of Tula stars on SKS parts is due to the extensive serialization of parts on an SKS, such that marking them with a star was superfluous. Tula Mosins have a plethora of star marked parts (e.g., barrel bands, various bolt parts, but not all parts). However, this is on a series of rifles with only four serialized parts.
Could be, but perhaps not. :)
The perpose of the R/E on those guns were to allocate who/where they were made when several locations were producing the same parts right... So then I must ask, who else other then Tula was producing the sks in Russia from 49 to 52? Hmmm? declare1
Maybe it was the Igor factory they needed to contrast part manufacturing with. :)
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on December 20, 2015, 09:16:35 AM
I see your point LC bit I still think it's likely a Tula star like an R on a Remington part is a Remington R, or an E is an Eddystone part for American firearms. Why only this part has a star? Perhaps the scarcity of Tula stars on SKS parts is due to the extensive serialization of parts on an SKS, such that marking them with a star was superfluous. Tula Mosins have a plethora of star marked parts (e.g., barrel bands, various bolt parts, but not all parts). However, this is on a series of rifles with only four serialized parts.
The possibility that it is a Tula factory star can not be discounted any more than it can be confirmed. But I also believe it likely indicates Tula.
Maybe these are NVA marked.... National pride ya know? fart1
Wait... I thought the /T\ meant tula. :)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 07:49:44 AM
QuoteThere are different types of inspectors and associated stamps (e.g., tester, passer, master…technological, OTC…etc) and sorting this out is no easy task, even if you have several good Russian books on the subject.
Precisely, this stamp can represent literally anything and although it came out of tula, its not necessarily a 'tula' star in the way the main arsenal stamp represents. When you take in account all the little parts it takes to make an sks, if this stamp means the part was 'made at tula', my simple question is.... Where are all the other stars on all the other parts?
This is why I brought this question up months ago when I got my russian sneek. With no matching receiver cover, I was trying to determine a way to identify Tula vs Izzy made guns. I noticed this same small star on my receiver under the stock line. That is why I asked people here with known "as built" Tulas and Izzys to please check over their rifles for this star.
If we found them on all Tulas and none on Izzys, then that would be a good confirmation. If we found them on Izzys as well, that would kill the theory.
However, nobody helped with that request.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 10:39:25 AM
Maybe it was the Igor factory they needed to contrast part manufacturing with. :)
И for ИГОР ЗАВОДЪ, that must be what the '57 letter gun suffix actually means! rofl
Seriously, I don't know the answer. The star could certainly have some other meaning but it has a long association (post 1928) with Tula, so that is the first hypothesis. Why did it disappear from the RSLs? Maybe a change in marking habits in this era. It does seem odd that Tula would
stop the star marking at about the same time that the only other arsenal that made SKSs
started making them.
I have so little knowledge of the AK-47 world, but did Russian AKs ever have any arsenal "parts markings"?
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 10:39:25 AM
Could be, but perhaps not. :)
The perpose of the R/E on those guns were to allocate who/where they were made when several locations were producing the same parts right... So then I must ask, who else other then Tula was producing the sks in Russia from 49 to 52? Hmmm? declare1
Maybe it was the Igor factory they needed to contrast part manufacturing with. :)
Could be a specific line or sub-shop within Tula as well. Maybe line A had this star stamp, line B had some other stamp, line C had yet a different stamp. Can't discount and can't prove is certainly right Danny. The fact that this stamp was seen in Tula manufactured weapons both pre and post-WWII (and not Izhevsk SKSs, maybe not anywhere else...does anyone have evidence to the contrary?) certainly is a point in favor of it being Tula related...
PS... Because nobody has a clue as to its meaning etc.
Im glad all these Chinese letter guns have chu stocks that were made by tula. rofl
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 12:41:00 PM
PS... Because nobody has a clue as to its meaning etc.
That make no sense. If we don't know what it is, then why wouldn't we be looking for answers? If I had some as-issued russians, the first thing I would have done when this question came up was pull the stocks and check the guns.
Sure we should look into it. All I'm sayin is when you posted it on the receiver, I dont think anyone was able to make anything of it. Now apparently its gained traction to some degree. All I'm sayin, and I'm pretty sure that makes sense. ???
What if. :o
Seeing how is was replaced with dif stamps like this 'T+K' , then they must represent the same thing, and if the star meants tula, then by this logic the 'T+K' means tula also. senil1
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/Matrix%20Morpheus1.jpg)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 01:59:25 PM
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee269/mrcoinring/mrcoinring001/Matrix%20Morpheus1.jpg)
But....what if they aren't....then we can finally identify a Tula from an Izzy that has no matching cover....
It's almost a fair bet that my Russian may be an Izzy, the only place it has one of these stars is on the RSL. And it seems as though mine has maybe been through refurb twice as it has the Nizhyn stamp that LC identified as well as what appears could be one of the three triangle stamps to the left of it. I just can not read what is inside the triangle.
Mine is just a confusing mix-master!
So if my russian does not have it then its an izzy? :-X
From what RM has posted, a rework can have it or not have it. Seeing that the overwhelming majority of russians have seen some level of rework... Do you actually want to classify a mystery gun missing a cover based on such a ****ty stsndard? Or would you be better off comparing the serials to known examples and features like we do now?
Just to add a little confusion thumb1 especially on Russian "refurbs".....lets look at something else. Now say from 1939 to 1945, just how many K98 Mausers did Russia capture. I will bet on the order of millions, given the imports of Russian and Yugoslavian refurb Mausers a few years ago. Now, if all these markings on an SKS, SVT, Mosin or indicators of some type of refurb, reman or rebuild scheme, why wouldn't they treat a Mauser or other captured weapon the same? If my feeble memory serves me correct, the only things they did to say a K98 capture is:
they mixed parts to rebuild their captured K98 rifles, and refinished them. They sometimes peened the Swastika markings on the rifles, and/or put “X” marks on the receivers of the rifles. The Russians often numbered the K98’s bolts with electro pencil. Finally they often applied a Shellac finish to the stocks like that seen on rebuilt Russian Mosin Nagant rifles. Also typically the front sight hoods are gone, and capture screws are missing.
No little star stamps saying hey, this weapon is a re"whatever" even though they claimed it as property of the CCCP, and in turn reissued them to their own troops in certain instances.
This trend kind of follows any weapon Russia captured and refreshed.
Could it not be that, maybe one factory supplied some small parts to another factory. China did it, used little side factories to produce smaller parts and ship it to the big factory.
Maybe, lets take the Izhevsk Nagant hammer, it was made and got it's little star at the Tula plant, they shipped to Izhevsk. Maybe Izhevsk fell behind on production on the little pistol hammers that month, and had several thousand pistols, but no hammers, Tula had several thousand hammers. So Tula sends the Commie pony express carrying a big bag of hammers to Izhevsk. During war time weapon production, production can be feast or famine depending on local issues and events, so they could have used, swapped and shared parts, or even divided the overall production between two factories to reach a common goal, protection of the motherland.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 02:17:18 PM
So if my russian does not have it then its an izzy? :-X
From what RM has posted, a rework can have it or not have it. Seeing that the overwhelming majority of russians have seen some level of rework... Do you actually want to classify a mystery gun missing a cover based on such a ****ty stsndard? Or would you be better off comparing the serials to known examples and features like we do now?
That is not what I'm saying. Simply that mine doesn't have the star stamp on the receiver or barrel or anywhere else other than the RSL, and it's likely an Izhevsk (or however it is spelled).
The main thing I have learned about the Russian carbines since getting mine, they are just as mysterious as the Chinese...if not more so!
I was replying to PS
Sorry LC, your post was right after mine...thought you were addressing it!
Quote from: Dannyboy53 on December 20, 2015, 02:46:19 PM
Sorry LC, your post was right after mine...thought you were addressing it!
You posted while I was posting is all
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 02:17:18 PM
So if my russian does not have it then its an izzy? :-X
Well....if we find that all Tula built rifles have it somewhere on the receiver and no Izzys have it on the receiver.....that's a pretty strong find.
I can understand refurbs having it on small parts that could have been taken off other rifles, so I understand that may not have much weight....but if we find a pattern of it on receivers or other key action parts, then that is a pretty strong case. And then from there, that could also answer the question that star RSLs are off of Tula built rifles as well.
Too bad nobody wants to check this.
Quoteif we find that all Tula built rifles have it somewhere on the receiver
Sure... Prove to me that all tulas have this mark somewhere on the barreled receiver.
QuoteToo bad nobody wants to check this.
Three pages and counting. thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 03:07:59 PM
Quoteif we find that all Tula built rifles have it somewhere on the receiver
Sure... Prove to me that all tulas have this mark somewhere on the barreled receiver.
QuoteToo bad nobody wants to check this.
Three pages and counting. thumb1
OMG, you are going to give me a brain annyuerism. That's my whole point.... I asked for people who have Russian guns to pull the stocks and look for the smaller star on the receiver somewhere. I don't have Russians, so I can't help with this. If people check for this and we find all Tulas have the small star somewhere, or we only see them on Tulas, then that gives us more information.
I have one early featured tula and I'm not at home... Rarely am.
Everyone with a tula check yo sheet!
Better? :P
Stars....Tula stars...uuhhmm no. French acceptance marks
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bubba/french3a_zpsdeofcqcj.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bubba/french3a_zpsdeofcqcj.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bubba/b2a544f1c0_zps932rxgeo.jpeg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bubba/b2a544f1c0_zps932rxgeo.jpeg.html)
Identity crisis
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bubba/tangTulaIzhevsk_zpsw1vxlsoc.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bubba/tangTulaIzhevsk_zpsw1vxlsoc.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/bubba/4584216910_3_zpsztk9xobs.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/bubba/4584216910_3_zpsztk9xobs.jpg.html)
rofl
Damn you!
Hey PS.... Does your russian have all early 52 and older features?
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 05:01:17 PM
Hey PS.... Does your russian have all early 52 and older features?
It's long gone, but I posted tons of pics here in this section when I got it. I think it was determined to be a 52-53 by features.
So... Star on possible 53.
To clarify... I more then recognize the data showing the star is found on 'non furb' guns 52 and under as RM has provided. My opinion is simply that nobody knows what the 'meaning' of of said star is. Im challenging members of all ranks to find some solid indication without regurgitating whats been posted other places on the net. How many times has this course of action gotten the collecting community in trouble time and time again?
This is a good thread and the data collection and discussion is what makes us sksfiles. Your going to have dif opinions and ideas throughout process before coming to a general consensus on whats most likely. Lets not toss out avenues because they dont fit the narrative.
Quote from: Power Surge on December 20, 2015, 06:56:09 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 05:01:17 PM
Hey PS.... Does your russian have all early 52 and older features?
It's long gone, but I posted tons of pics here in this section when I got it. I think it was determined to be a 52-53 by features.
I looked all over my early tula and couldn't find a star. It is however possible its covered by cosmo, but I'm not cleaning it to find out. Lol.
In all seriousness, I can see just about everything minus the nooks and I cant find one.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on December 20, 2015, 10:36:30 PM
To clarify... I more then recognize the data showing the star is found on 'non furb' guns 52 and under as RM has provided. My opinion is simply that nobody knows what the 'meaning' of of said star is. Im challenging members of all ranks to find some solid indication without regurgitating whats been posted other places on the net. How many times has this course of action gotten the collecting community in trouble time and time again?
This is a good thread and the data collection and discussion is what makes us sksfiles. Your going to have dif opinions and ideas throughout process before coming to a general consensus on whats most likely. Lets not toss out avenues because they dont fit the narrative.
LC I'm not regurgitating anything, I wasn't aware this debate was going on in other forums. No, we do not know the star is Tula, but we do not know that it isn't. That is what some of us are saying here and a little honest and open discussion MIGHT eventually determine that...or it will not.
I didn't say you did danny. thumb1
Yes.. It may be, it bay not be. Thats just it. I more then acknowledge that aswell. thumb1. In fact, I wasn't refering to anyone in particular. I was talking in generalities.
Sorry not the RSL answer but thought I'd add my additional two-cents regarding the "Star" marking. My earlier post may have not been clear so I'll try to clarify regarding the “Star” marking on Tula produced weapons. A lot of the terms are thrown around loosely and they end up getting twisted around. Russian authors also use different terms with different definitions, which further confuses matters, not to mention things can get lost or twisted in translating a lot of these things.
Like mentioned previously the “Star” marking is synonymous with Tula. Other countries have used a star marking but that’s another story. The “Star” marking in question here is governed by the OTC, which BTW has a few different definitions. Some authors will call this marking a Technological hallmark, while other will call it an OTK marking. Both would be correct if used in the proper context but OTK is a more recognizable term. Then there is the AC if we look further back in history at Russian firearms/markings.
The Department of Technical Control or Technical Control Services ensures quality control and that weapons are acceptable for service. The OTK stamp used indicates that the parts were “manufactured” within proper tolerances. Often OTC and OTK will be used interchangeably (and translation can add to that) but again the context being used is important. People like to separate the governing body and the stamp used, but often that gets twisted. The hammer and star are both considered OTK markings or technological markings, and they are stamped on various parts. OTK markings are completely different than inspection (provisional, definitive) markings and other specific proofs (e.g., Circle K, Circle Y, etc). Also, different arsenals used different markings during different timeframes and then there are Arsenal marks. Here are a few examples of the “Star” marking. If others have information supporting or against, I’d be most interested. I think in Russia things like this are almost common knowledge but to us they are not.
TT with multiple OTK stamps on the various parts and I posted a 1895 with various OTK markings as well.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/1_zps0q0o8qon.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/1_zps0q0o8qon.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/2_zpsgipmmg2n.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/2_zpsgipmmg2n.jpg.html)
1895 Nagant Cylinder: The markings are as follows going clockwise - starting at 7 o'clock: Serial Number (HM525), Inspection Marking, OTK Marking (Star).
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/4_zpsnfpyloxf.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/4_zpsnfpyloxf.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/3_zpshuubtgfo.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/3_zpshuubtgfo.jpg.html)
TT Magazines: Different sizes of "Star" OTK markings for different production years. The pistol also has different sizes depending on production year. Last pic is TT magazine with Izhevsk OTK marking.
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/6_zpsfrgyniln.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/6_zpsfrgyniln.jpg.html)
(http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a632/Bunker9939/Russian%20Arsenals/5_zpsjdu1qgst.jpg) (http://s1287.photobucket.com/user/Bunker9939/media/Russian%20Arsenals/5_zpsjdu1qgst.jpg.html)
PS, I apologize that I didn't see your original post asking for help. Either that or I saw it and got busy with work and forgot to go back and check. Either way I apologize for your getting left hanging.
So I just now took my '52 as-issued out of the safe and gun sock. It does have the RSL#2 and the little star on it, half under the slider. I took the gun down and can find no more of the little stars anywhere. Plenty of other little stamps but no stars, just the big one with the arrow in it on the stock and receiver cover. This gun is all matching and I see no evidence of any refurb process and definitely no marks that would be refurb marks that I am aware of.
Here are some so-so pics of the front and back of my RSL.
(http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s430/Carl_in_CT/P1020385_zpsi4xmez7y.jpg)
(http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s430/Carl_in_CT/P1020395_zpslhiachbs.jpg)
(http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s430/Carl_in_CT/P1020392_zpsjhpuoell.jpg)
(http://i1051.photobucket.com/albums/s430/Carl_in_CT/P1020391_zpsz45irwiu.jpg)