Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and kick this can around the yard.. This is really long, caused a headache and I hate typing this much, especially on my day off.. :)
The terminology of commercial vs. surplus :o It's been a long standing argument, so lets hash it out, clear the air, it seems that this is a major thing relegated to the SKS side of collecting. I can't think of another collectible firearm where this is such an issue..
Disclaimer.....this is not intended for bubba rifle discussions, they are what they are, state side made variants. So...don't go there bat1
So, just say to yourself: Self, I will not discuss state side Crapco special bubba made rifles... thumb1
An actual military surplus weapon is, at least to me, one that maintains all original military parts, whether or not it's refurbed, it's form, it's function are as the day it were built, in other words, they pulled it from the storage crate, rack what have you and put it in the box and sold it to me through an import vendor. If you hopped in a time machine and went back in time, you would see this exact weapon in use on the field or being put in it's storage rack, C&R weapons would be a prime example.
Now what deems a commercial, a sporter, civilian weapon, is it one built solely of once milspec parts for the sole purpose of selling to consumers, is it one thats purpose built to look and function like it's military counter part(within legal guidelines) or is it one built and altered to a newer different spec, maybe it's one that looks identical, dated from the same time frame, operates identical, but is just missing all the military acceptance stamps/marks/proofs. To me, it would also make sense, any weapon that had to be rebuilt, uses specialized parts not found on a equivalent milspec weapon or redesigned from a selectable full auto and converted to semiauto is a commercial weapon, why, because it is no longer original, it has a different receiver and firing group and/or other parts, off the top of my head, the Cetmes, the FN FALs, the UZIs, the Vz61s, the M31 Suomi, the AKMs, the RPKs, a Vz58, a M1927 Thompson, even the M-14 and M-16, and all the other cool weapons, all of them are basically commercial, built from receiverless parts kits on neutered altered modern day stamped/machined receivers. They have the look, the capacity, the feel, but lack the bite. A true blue bonafied surplus weapon of any one of those examples would run you a fortune and some paperwork.
Lets pick a random semiauto example.....the little 'ol M1 Carbine, this little venerable historical weapon has seen major world battles, conflicts, stood guard while we slept and has also been commercialized almost like the SKS. Caliber/manufacture/origin/history aside, the M1 Carbine, like the SKS, parts are plentiful, the weapons are common, and aftermarket stuffs are usually easily found. Now, what separates one from M1 Carbine from the other, well naturally you have the tried and true USGI models, the National Postal Meters, I.B.M.s, Rockolas, Saginaws, etc, but then you have the early Universal and Plainfields built of USGI parts, then later, they were made of all new parts by a huge number of manufactures, rebarrled, recalibered, scoped and altered from the original design, available overall in many different variants.
So lets compare the two...maybe simplify things,
How would I do it, how would GM's feeble mind lump these two different weapon systems into equal categories....
Well, a "SURPLUS" USGI M1 Carbine would rate with the SovietSinos, SinoSoviets, Ghosts, Letter, Middle Eastern, Bring Backs, SinoBanian, Romanian, Yugo M59, Chinese/NVA, Polish, East Germany, Russian or any that were pretty much following the original as designed SKS45 form. Like the M1 Carbine, the SKS saw slight improvements, bayonets changed, stocks, little changes here and there, but the general form was still there. It's still the way it was built and designed, maybe it saw refurb, restock, rebarrel, but, it still holds to the general military spec Simonov SKS45 design. Regardless of lug design, bayonet design, lightened bolt and carrier, it's still a Type 56 SKS, just like it's a USGI M1 Carbine.
I think I would stick the long barrel Yugo, the Albanian, Chrome Chinese/Yugo Honor Guards, the M59/66 and M59/66a1, the North Korean, yes, while they are not holding strictly to Simonov's plan, just hear me out on these.... These were purely military grade and designed, they saw use in conflicts and use in their respective military. They were military designed individually to suit one's particular military needs at the time, I offer the M2 Carbine and/or the M3, they both were military designed and produced, but they are altered M1 Carbines to suit the needs of our military and make a fair comparison for these SKS models. Point is, these SKSs were not rebuilt or purpose built just for the sake of resale, to meet ever more stringent import laws or to entice sales with larger mags, shorter barrels, thumbhole stocks etc.
The early Universals and Plainsfield M1 USGI parts Carbines, these were "commercial" built from surplus parts to make complete carbines.... I guess I would lump the later rifles and post ban rifles in, bayonet lugs chopped, riveted, brought in with no bayonets, the later kind of crude built, rush for import, make that quota, satisfy demand, the stamped SKSs or any still "close" in original military spec or form, but just ever so slightly different than the original SKS45 build spec.
Like this group of M1 Carbines, these SKSs deviate just a hair in some form or another, these are what I'd call, I don't know, maybe the limbo rifles, grey area or semi-surplus, they fit somewhere between the true blue surplus and true blue commercial, some more one way than another. Like these "almost" USGI Carbines, maybe, they are almost true military SKSs, but something, some detail or part is ever so slightly different from the original SKS45 design. Usually like this group of M1 Carbines, the SKS, most all parts are usually easily swappable between the this variant and the true military variant above.
Now, the commercial Auto Ordnance, Chiappa, ERMA-Werke, Iver Johnson, Global Arms, Rock Island Armory, Howa, and on and on M1 Carbines etc, to me, these would constitute the Ds, the Ms, the Para, the Type 84s, the Cowboy Companions, SKS Sporters, even the Bosnian made G10 variant, and all the others. Like this group of M1 Carbines, these SKSs still have the basic functionality and almost the same looks, they are just majorly altered in some form or another from the original basic SKS design. Maybe, if your lucky, a very small handful of USGI parts fit these commercial M1 Carbines, just like maybe a handful of SKS parts fit these variants. And in both systems, some are highly collectible, expensive, rare, while some are not.
Now whether or not they were built as a regular Type 56 SKS and torn down, butchered and modified, or just purpose built in this form, shouldn't have any bearing. Sure, it may have milspec internals, but how many SKSs built use totally all new, modern day bits in them, so this is a given. Too me, it's the now thats important, not the past, the then or it once was is just subjective to the individual person. But, regardless of what it once was, it is "now" a sporter commercial rifle, altered and changed from it's original military SKS45 design, it's just that, it now just does not adhere to Sergei Gavrilovich Simonov's design, like a majority of these commercial M1 Carbines usually don't adhere to the U.S. Military design. It's has basically became a hybrid SKS, it works kind of the same, looks kind of the same, but in the end.... it's not really, the same.
It kind of repeats it's self in other weapons, oh.......like the Enfield, take a Santa Fe Mk5 Jungle Carbine, while it's almost identical looking and every bit equal in operation and in recoil to a BSA Shirley or ROF Fazakerley, but, this No5 Enfield will never will be a true military rifle in the true sense of the word, it's a commercial copy, derived from what was once a "once military" grade SMLE Mk III or a Leeâ€"Enfield No. 4, it's just chopped, butchered, fluffed and buffed, it's been commercialized and ergo..it is now a commercial rifle, a replica, if you will.
Or take the M-14, the original had a fire selector switch, sure, the early ones were built of USGI parts, but like the built from a kit rifles above, had a semiauto receiver, the automatic fire/select fire receiver was a no no per the ATF, so it was a commercial variant, a kit, because a normal working class citizen possibly couldn't afford a true select fire M-14, now today, it's sold simply as a M1A Springfield. Another variant, the old PolyTech M-14 is a commercial weapon, sure, if your lucky, maybe some USGI parts will fit, but a handful of USGI parts doesn't constitute a true Polytech USGI M-14.
Lugers, Mausers and C-96 Broomhandles were also commercially made, while side by side visually identical to their military counterparts, the only thing that separated them is the missing stampings, acceptance marks, or waffenampts, or even just serial ranges, but, in the end...... they are still.....commercial made weapons.
So...... that is GM's take, Jimmy is now highly restless and I'm sick of typing, maybe I'm just totally wrong on the subject, so, you all discuss it, and I'll just read. chuckles1
In 1981 the T81 was being mass produced and the T56 fully withdrawn from service by 1983/84 erra. I reiterate this because in reality, ALL chinese having a serial number dating post 1981 did not have a military future and were intended for the commercial market.
That being said.... There are pre 1981 guns that were scrubbed and latter dated at the time of rebuild, but these would also be commercial guns because they were completely overhauled and reserialized for one purpose..... The commercial market. thumb1
And then we have pre 1981 guns that were not scrubbed and reserialized, but were moderately to heavily modified for the commercial market... So they are obviously a commercial.
Lastly, there are commercial guns in which were built new from NOS parts for the commercial market... Obviously a commercial gun.
Here in Canada there is much confusion at times on individual levels on what constitutes commercial vs military grade.
We have commercial sks like the sks-D and the sks-M. Those are simple.
Then we have the standard factory marked military grade chinese sks. Again, pretty simple.
Then we have military grade barreled receivers with fairly blonde un-numbered stocks that to me appear simply to be refurbed / restocked military guns done before they were shipped over. Many call these commercial, but I think refurb is more appropriate.
And then again we have what appear to be all military grade sks that have come over, but have been scrubbed of military markings. These have been coined "clamdestine", but have no evidence of covert intentions. These appear more likely to be military guns sanitized for civilian sale.
To add more confusion, some people will call anything with "made in china" or a pinned barrel as commercial without kk owing anything more about the gun. Not an accurate appraisal, but it happens.
So military, commercial, military sanitized and military refurbished seem pretty common up here.
The Yugos we get are all surplus. The russians are also surplus, but we do have some molots which are surplus rebranded as civilian export.
To me, the definitions are very simple....
Made to be issued to military or other government agency - surplus.
Made to be sold to civilian market - commercial.
It doesn't matter if it's a new production model, or a model rebuilt from a surplus gun. If it was made to be sold to the civilian market, it's a commercial gun.
So if a gun was made to be issued, never was, but was scrubbed and then sold to the civilian market... what is it?
It wasn't built for the civilian market, but was altered to be sold to the civilian market. At what point does the line get drawn behind the intent? What the intent is at time of assembly? Or what the intent was when it left the arsenal floor?
Quote from: fenceline on February 22, 2016, 07:26:32 PM
So if a gun was made to be issued, never was, but was scrubbed and then sold to the civilian market... what is it?
It wasn't built for the civilian market, but was altered to be sold to the civilian market. At what point does the line get drawn behind the intent? What the intent is at time of assembly? Or what the intent was when it left the arsenal floor?
If it was made to be a military issue gun...it's a surplus gun. It doesn't matter if it was used or not. And how does one know if it was ever issued?
Plus, they don't often scrub guns unless they are making it into something else. There's no reason to scrub a functional surplus gun. They just get shipped over here as is.
To me, its in regards to the state its currently in and last was in China. Like PS says, it simple. If it was altered in any way for the commercial market... Its a commercial gun.
Would you call a bubba 'as original' because of what it 'used' to be? Not hardly.
I see a common 'brainchild' on another board posting some extremely stupid statements like..
QuoteAll conversions "what you call commercial" were recreated from original type 56 sks
Ummmm yeah, NO! There ARE sks rifles that were built NEW specifically for the US market.... NEVER WERE THEY A MILITARY GUN IN A PRE EXISTING LIFE. And as I stated above, much of this designation should depent on WHEN the gun was made which WE ARE ABLE TO DETERMINE through many contributors efforts here on SKSFILES.COM
Like I mentioned, we have a whole series of sks rifles up here that have all the features of a mid range military sks. The only difference is the serial numbers were scrubbed in china, and 01-##### serial numbers were added. No arsenal, no made in China.
I've got a Chinese letter gun with a new stock, and a 10m /26\ with the same stock. Appear more refurbed than civilian made.
Neither I'd consider civilian. But they have for sure been reqorked for civilian sale.
I think that these are the types of guns that cause confusion though. Obviously not commercial like an sks-d, but no longer military market intentions either.
A simple refurb or stock replacement etc is one thing.... Something done in regular maintenance within military service anyhow.
QuoteThe only difference is the serial numbers were scrubbed in china, and 01-##### serial numbers were added. No arsenal,
Now that ∆∆∆ is where I draw the line.... It was completely redesignated with a NEW serial number AND reworked for one purpose... Commercial market.
We have an intestine legal situation in Canada when it comes to legal classifications of guns. Might be an interesting comparison.
If a gun is full auto, it is prohibited.
A gun that was full auto, but converted to semi only, is prohibited as a converted auto. You lucky yanks get off easy on that one.
Now, if an arsenal makes a receiver that was intended to be a full auto gun, and then alter it to semi auto, without ever having assembled it into a functioning full auto gun, it is still considered a converted auto because of the initial intent behind its start of manufacture.
That may be the kind of thinking displayed by that other board. That all sks parts were made with the intent to be assembled into military guns, but then plans changed at some point either before assembly, during or after assembly before it left the arsenal, and off to commercial shelves it went.
If I bought a gun that was built, stored in cosmoline but never left the shop, and that gun eventually got sold as commercial, would it be? Or if it had been shipped to a military warehouse and then sold as surplus, would it be a military gun? In both cases, the only difference is where it last resided.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 22, 2016, 07:45:30 PM
A simple refurb or stock replacement etc is one thing.... Something done in regular maintenance within military service anyhow.
QuoteThe only difference is the serial numbers were scrubbed in china, and 01-##### serial numbers were added. No arsenal,
Now that ∆∆∆ is where I draw the line.... It was completely redesignated with a NEW serial number AND reworked for one purpose... Commercial market.
For me it would still be military surplus. Especially if the features put it to a certain time frame that show it had a military intent.
Would a molot Russian be a commercial rifle because they added laser etching to get past legal issues in Russian for export?
Still surplus, just being altered to get it out of the country. But no different than surplus coming from Poland or the Ukraine.
QuoteIf I bought a gun that was built, stored in cosmoline but never left the shop, and that gun eventually got sold as commercial, would it be? Or if it had been shipped to a military warehouse and then sold as surplus, would it be a military gun?
Both would be military surplus and not commercial....
I would hate to base this debate based on the CA gov interpretations. :-\
QuoteWould a molot Russian be a commercial rifle because they added laser etching to get past legal issues in Russian for export?
Still surplus, just being altered to get it out of the country. But no different than surplus coming from Poland or the Ukraine.
No... Your comparing apples to oranges. Etching something per gov regulations such as an imlort mark etc does not make it a commercial gun.... Thats crazy talk. That's just a weeee bit different then being completely rebuilt from misc parts and entirely scrubbed of its previous identity for the sole purpose of resale to the commercial market.
The scrubbed guns imho are the only debatable equation...
The other two categories include being made NEW from nos, and being heavily altered from their original configuration..... For commercial sale.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 22, 2016, 07:56:05 PM
QuoteWould a molot Russian be a commercial rifle because they added laser etching to get past legal issues in Russian for export?
Still surplus, just being altered to get it out of the country. But no different than surplus coming from Poland or the Ukraine.
No... Your comparing apples to oranges. Etching something per gov regulations such as an imlort mark etc does not make it a commercial gun.... Thats crazy talk. That's just a weeee bit different then being completely rebuilt from misc parts and entirely scrubbed of its previous identity for the sole purpose of resale to the commercial market.
I'm not talking rebuilt. I'm talking built, then scrubbed. Instead of adding info, they altered info.
Both guns made for military use, but altered for commercial sale after being made.
I think the apples and oranges is right, but then someone throws in a nectarine.
I blame Jimmy.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 22, 2016, 07:51:35 PM
QuoteIf I bought a gun that was built, stored in cosmoline but never left the shop, and that gun eventually got sold as commercial, would it be? Or if it had been shipped to a military warehouse and then sold as surplus, would it be a military gun?
Both would be military surplus and not commercial....
I would hate to base this debate based on the CA gov interpretations. :-\
Me too. Damn gun grabbers.
Notice how that greasy monkey is just sitting back watching the world burn.
Damn you monkey.
Quote from: fenceline on February 22, 2016, 08:17:56 PM
Notice how that greasy monkey is just sitting back watching the world burn.
Damn you monkey.
:) burn...baby burn fart1
I've seen so much on the subject, this is that, that is this, the proverbial, I've collected SKSs since I picked the first one off the assembly line, this is what I say it is, the world is flat, the sun revolves around the Earth, waters wet, the sky is blue, bla bla, bork buzz, yadda yadda.. When is enough, enough. I just opened the door for discussion among like minded individuals, and as such, let them discuss it openly in a non-authoritarian non-threating manner. Now granted, I posted my "opinion" above, and like bungholes, everyone has one, it was to stir creative thinking and and engage some friendly discussion. I can't in good faith speak to whats what, whats allowed in Canada, New York, Cali, what have you, my post above was just an overall synopsis of the SKS realm through my eyes.
Maybe at some point, hopefully we can "all" meaning "all collectors in general, both young and old" can actually come to an agreement, maybe end and dispel all of the old myths, half truths and false information that have run rampant over the years, get rid of all the arrogance and egos that exist and get to the real reason we all started this hobby or addiction in the first place.... The pursuit of history in your hands, the thought of owning Communist weapons from an era that not long ago existed. The joy of powder smells and targets full of holes.. Come on, everyone knows and enjoys those things, imagine knowing the hows, the whys, the whos and whats if everyone just sucked up their egos, put on their bigboy pants, got along and openly discussed these matters freely and without attitude and full on confrontation. thumb1
Geeze, after rereading that....Jimmy must be napping or.......wait, where is that little bastard :o I better go find him... rofl2 rofl2
I think the monkey is drunk. Jimmy spiked his drink.
Good points. But still drunk.
The altered from original configuration for export and the purpose built from nos parts are def commercial. The only ones that in my opinion that can go either way depending on personal view is the scrubbed guns still in original configuration, having a new serial, but no longer having any arsenal stamp.
I think you guys can tell what catagory I would put them in. :P
Quote from: Power Surge on February 22, 2016, 07:23:01 PM
To me, the definitions are very simple....
Made to be issued to military or other government agency - surplus.
Made to be sold to civilian market - commercial.
It doesn't matter if it's a new production model, or a model rebuilt from a surplus gun. If it was made to be sold to the civilian market, it's a commercial gun.
I have to agree with PS on this one, this sums it up nicely in my opinion.
So LC is favouring military... :P
I think to accurately depict the differences, it goes farther than just commercial vs military.
Commercial on one end (from spare parts or otherwise), leading to scrubbed, refurbed, original milsurp.
drool2
I say we call all SKS with AK mags either SKS-D or SKS-M, and that all commercial rifles are actually made from military parts so they are milsurp too.
bat1 chuckles1
popcorn1 popcorn1 popcorn1
chuckles1
Laugh, that %#^*+Â¥ jimmy! bat1
Here's my opinion (which is worth basically nothing but hey :)))
1) I think if the gun is scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as. The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.
2) If the gun is functionally upgraded by the exporter/importer (scope mount, chopped barrel, upgraded to a Monte Carlo stock) it's a commercial variant. This portion coincides exactly with BATFs rulings on maintaining status as curios and relics. They allow a simple stock change to one of identical material and type, easily removable accessories that don't make permanent modifications to the firearm, and temporary removal of certain parts of the gun such as a bayonet for shooting purposes. Anything else typically voids C&R status and these types of mods are exactly what the exporters did to SKSs in the 88 to 94 timeframe.
I can see the opposite point of view to 1), but purposeful refurbishment for the purposes of exporting to a civilian market sure seems 'commercial' in nature to me. I typically call the scrubbed guns in std. Type 56 configurations "Blank (late build)" guns in the GB surveys.
Nice GM, A great thread that definitely needed discussion. thumb1
See how there's differing opinions....yet no 1 is stomping their feet and saying " its this way just...just because I've said so for years so it must be FACT" Heck...no 1's even been banned...yet rofl
Just open discussion, leading to a thread that IMHO, will be an informative and helpful read for newbies and old collectors alike. thumb1
I pretty much agree with LC that the only really debatable ones are the scrubbed and renumbered ones. I lean the other way though and still consider them surplus. I liken them to guns from the CMP. Reworked mixmasters but still not "commercial". To me it comes down to whenever General Zhou or whoever decided the military wasn't going to use them any more. Anything after that is commercial.
Quote from: armedhippie on February 23, 2016, 12:51:16 AM
Nice GM, A great thread that definitely needed discussion. thumb1
See how there's differing opinions....yet no 1 is stomping their feet and saying " its this way just...just because I've said so for years so it must be FACT" Heck...no 1's even been banned...yet rofl
Just open discussion, leading to a thread that IMHO, will be an informative and helpful read for newbies and old collectors alike. thumb1
+1
So.. "any alteration", scrubbed or not, any deviation or physical modification from the original SKS45 design, and its commercial.
Now, the model that has the latch removable bayonet.. as close as it is to the standard SKS, technically it is also... altered, so it would be a commercial, correct?
If it adheres to the standard SKS45 design, stamped receiver and all of the oddities, but not scrubbed it's surplus, as in military grade..
Quote1) I think if the gun is scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as. The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.
Now this one I find interesting, the grey area has worked it's way to the top, Like he says, if it were serial OU812 in one life, they grind some, reblue, do a little fluff and buff and now it's serial BR549, something caused that, it technically is different. Because scrubbing by most nations usually means it more or less was repurposed, the scrubbing of Nazi K98s by Romania, Yugoslavia and Russia, the scrubbing of Russian Mosins by Finland. It's kind of along those lines, scrubbed, rebuilt, even reserialed and remarked for a purpose. This purpose could be anything from normal use in new hands to war reparations. And it seems these were mostly later rifles China did this to, so were they scrubbed, rebuilt and repurposed for commercial sale, had they quit using the SKS by this time. Was the scrubbing kind of a de-mil process to get in under a law somewhere, strip the military style aura away, suddenly it becomes a sterile quasimodo commercial sporter rifle. Maybe for China, they had simply become goods for sale to the American consumer or who ever had the fundage for purchase. It was all about the income, they obviously sold weaponry world wide and had no issues selling to anyone who was in the market for weapons buying in the 80's and 90's.
This is a good discussion. thumb1
I think I should caveat 1) to be a little more specific:
Quote1) I think if the gun Chinese SKS was scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as. The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.
Obviously Russian capture K98s don't magically become 'commercial' when the Russians refurbed them and sent them back into service. :)
Here's something I was thinking about driving into work this morning. Suppose you have two Chinese type 56s:
Gun A is a very nice looking 11 million /26\ that has excellent bluing and all parts matching except for the stock which is not numbered (but perfectly matches the handguard and is in like new condition).
Gun B is a very nice looking late build with all matching S/Ns (let's say it's a 90XXXXX series) including a very nice matching serial numbered stock.
We can either have:
- Both guns called "surplus" ex-military guns (or simply refurb if you prefer)
- Both guns are called "Commercial" guns
- Gun A is "surplus" ex-military and gun B is "commercial"
- Gun A is "commercial and gun B is "surplus" ex-military
I think I lean towards #3. Gun A is a surplus refurb with that blank stock. It was possibly (if not likely) refurbed for the commercial market, but we simply cannot know this. We do know that it could easily be sent back into the field and would be tracked, operate, and used exactly as it did when it was newly issued.
Gun B with the scrubbed receiver gained a totally new identity and the "90" serial prefix gives us concrete evidence when the refurbishment was done and why (to get it up to snuff for export to the United States commercial market). Without this tiny S/N change, this gun would be in exactly the same boat as gun A and would be either as-issued or another refurb.
Quote from: running-man on February 23, 2016, 02:16:17 PM
This is a good discussion. thumb1
I think I should caveat 1) to be a little more specific:
Quote1) I think if the gun Chinese SKS was scrubbed it becomes a commercial variant, even if nothing else is done to it regardless of what it started life as. The receiver S/N changing is a clear indication that the firearm's old life has ended and a new one has begun.
Obviously Russian capture K98s don't magically become 'commercial' when the Russians refurbed them and sent them back into service. :)
Here's something I was thinking about driving into work this morning. Suppose you have two Chinese type 56s:
Gun A is a very nice looking 11 million /26\ that has excellent bluing and all parts matching except for the stock which is not numbered (but perfectly matches the handguard and is in like new condition).
Gun B is a very nice looking late build with all matching S/Ns (let's say it's a 90XXXXX series) including a very nice matching serial numbered stock.
We can either have:- Both guns called "surplus" ex-military guns (or simply refurb if you prefer)
- Both guns are called "Commercial" guns
- Gun A is "surplus" ex-military and gun B is "commercial"
- Gun A is "commercial and gun B is "surplus" ex-military
I think I lean towards #3. Gun A is a surplus refurb with that blank stock. It was possibly (if not likely) refurbed for the commercial market, but we simply cannot know this. We do know that it could easily be sent back into the field and would be tracked, operate, and used exactly as it did when it was newly issued.
Gun B with the scrubbed receiver gained a totally new identity and the "90" serial prefix gives us concrete evidence when the refurbishment was done and why (to get it up to snuff for export to the United States commercial market). Without this tiny S/N change, this gun would be in exactly the same boat as gun A and would be either as-issued or another refurb.
bat1 my point was the K98s now had been repurposed, acquired a new use, like being used against the makers. :P
I would tend to agree with your little test question answer of #3
Cause gun B, no clue what it once was, now you only can see what it is. And one can not say with a lay your hand on the Bible and swear on mommas grave it is a 100% certainty it was an actual military issued or built weapon. It's been sterilized, neutered and cleansed of it's past existence.
You gotta call them what they are, now in the present, not jump up and down and swear they were this or that in the past, that past has been erased, cleansed... the past is just a best guess wag and one would have no definitive proof of what they actually were. What one does have, is visual proof of what they currently are.
Do we have to force these sks into 2 classes? It has been pointed out that we don't know if a scrubbed or refurb gun was military or not, that we should consider it commercial. I think having "no other info" as our measure of what is commercial could easily be flipped to "if we have nothing to prove it's commercial then it must be military". The lack of evidence doesn't push one or the other.
I think scrubbed / refurb could be a classification all its own, when lacking proof either way to substantiate a military or commercial direction.
Not to offend.. :o but what would be the issue with either term, military or commercial? If it were scrubbed, it's cleansed, history and any previous info is...history, gone. Is it the fear of owning a possible former military weapon that is now deemed commercial, does the term "commercial" offend, does it make it more feminine, in the end, it is still an SKS, made, or better yet, remade in China, I guess my question is, does the term "commercial" make it any less accurate, less powerful, less manly or whatever? It puts me in the mind of the age old Marlin vs. Glenfield .30-30 argument, while both were made by Marlin, just one is treated more like a cheap bland store brand, the other has the fancy smancy brand name stamped on it, in the end, the deer that got shot had no clue if it were a Marlin or a Glenfield that drew down on it and killed it. They are pretty much the same, just a different moniker.
I guess my angle is that just because it is scrubbed, doesn't mean it was scrubbed for a commercial purpose. Lots of nations scrub guns. Lacking direct proof of why a gun was scrubbed, or refurbed, doesn't help put it in either category.
We can assume it was done for commercial reasons, but the scrub alone isn't proof in itself of that.
Not once have I ever seen a obviously used and worn rifle imported scrubbed. This tells me they didn't do it for military purposes.
In addition....all the scrubbed guns that are able to be dated date well after when China stopped using the sks for military use. Reference my first post. So yes, its pretty well certain they were not scrubbed for anything other then the commercial market.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 23, 2016, 01:44:18 PM
So.. "any alteration", scrubbed or not, any deviation or physical modification from the original SKS45 design, and its commercial.
Now, the model that has the latch removable bayonet.. as close as it is to the standard SKS, technically it is also... altered, so it would be a commercial, correct?
If it adheres to the standard SKS45 design, stamped receiver and all of the oddities, but not scrubbed it's surplus, as in military grade..
While reading this discussion, The 1 of mine that just keep popping to mind was my SIX CORP SKS.
https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=1307.0#top
When taken down to just the barreled receiver ( which was thoroughly scrubbed of all markings) and compared to early SKSs like a ghost, 2 mill, 3 mill or letter gun, There are no differences. W/o looking at the s/n's, any 1 of us would have a hard time telling which was which. There's no doubt in my mind the six corp started life out with these early examples.
Now as you put it back together, the parts begin to become a mash-up of old and new. Granted they are all matched by the new s/n. It's still a mix and screams put together for export. The stock is un-numbered and shares a distinct deep red with polytech Legend AK's imported the same year. It's been re-s/n with an 88 prefix and has a detachable bayo the same as the 88 prefixed SKS D's.
As it stands, apart from the detach-bayo, It has barely deviated from the original SKS 45.
Do I think it started life as a military SKS? Yes
Would I consider it a commercial SKS now? Yes
Now it wasn't newly made like some for export, but it seems to me, it was put together solely with commercial export in mind.
Heck GM.... Adding the term 'commercial' to an sks now days adds a premium! So I 'like you' dont see what the big deal is. Its not a 'bad' thing......
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 23, 2016, 07:09:28 PM
Heck GM.... Adding the term 'commercial' to an sks now days adds a premium! So I 'like you' dont see what the big deal is. Its not a 'bad' thing......
Hell, any descriptive words add a premium, like there ain't a fricken shortage of terms already, whats another gonna hurt....I mean, we got as issued, light refurb, heavy refurb, not issued, was then, bla, is now, as that, bright shiny bore, buzz, matching, mis-matched, never shot, New In Box, bork, recon, redone, refurb, re this, all of it makes me wanna "re"gurgitate, so why would I really care if another loose term is thrown around. We are paying for these words anyway, just like stamps, serial ranges, a little feature here, a funky lever there... In the end it's an SKS, and they are quoted as being "superior to a M1 Garand or Carbine" anyway.. Besplode
Besides, it gives RM's Jimmy something to talk about the end of every month when he grades all of the completed GB tests rofl2 rofl2
Quote from: fenceline on February 23, 2016, 03:36:38 PM
Do we have to force these sks into 2 classes? It has been pointed out that we don't know if a scrubbed or refurb gun was military or not, that we should consider it commercial. I think having "no other info" as our measure of what is commercial could easily be flipped to "if we have nothing to prove it's commercial then it must be military". The lack of evidence doesn't push one or the other.
I think scrubbed / refurb could be a classification all its own, when lacking proof either way to substantiate a military or commercial direction.
I'm always open to any alternative Fenceline. thumb1
I would argue that the two types we're talking about only apply to Chinese SKSs and are pretty easy to differentiate with 99.9% of them falling into:
Military:
- Is a std. type 56 configuration with no "extras", and
- Receiver follows std S/N patterns, and
- Has arsenal stamp (unless it's a ghost or Soviet-Sino), and
- Piece parts on 'as-issued' specimens conform to the styles used during the build timeframe (i.e. long barrel lug pre '65, etc.) while piece parts on obvious refurb specimens can be from different eras but are very noticeable and look out of place on the gun. All piece parts may or may not be matching, but the receiver S/N being original is key.
Comercial:
- Guns with "extras" (SKS M, SKSS, Polytech Hunter etc.) that may or may not have original S/N and arsenal stamp, or
- For those that are in a std. type 56 configuration, have clearly scrubbed receivers. These scrubbed receivers are typically replaced with a new S/N having no similarities to the original S/N. (i.e. 89XXXXX as the S/N) and the original arsenal stamp is removed as well.
There are only a handful of Chinese SKSs I've ever seen that don't fall into these two categories. Refurb vs as-issued really should have no bearing on these designators.
What he said. thumb1
Dont get any more simple then that.
Resurrecting an older topic cuz I've been at this long enough now to have an opinion...
I agree with RM's last post, but would add that an SKS offered for civilian sale that cannot be placed back into military service without alteration should be considered a commercialized carbine. But, if it can be taken from a civilian's collection and placed directly into military service, then it should be considered a milsurp.
I do not feel that simply scrubbing the gun or changing SNs constitutes altering it from its original military purpose. However, doing so can make it much more difficult for collectors to determine its true pedigree...
Great thing about sksfiles..... opinions are allowed. thumb1
Quote from: Power Surge on February 22, 2016, 07:23:01 PM
To me, the definitions are very simple....
Made to be issued to military or other government agency - surplus.
Made to be sold to civilian market - commercial.
It doesn't matter if it's a new production model, or a model rebuilt from a surplus gun. If it was made to be sold to the civilian market, it's a commercial gun.
This is my view, as well. I will also add that adding an import mark, in order to comply with importation laws, does not make a surplus rifle a commercial one in my opinion. If original markings are scrubbed and replaced with a new serial number specifically for the civilian market, I see it as a commercial rifle at that point. This is why in the altered rifle subforum I say my son's bubba was made from a commercial rifle. It has a 94 S/N with no military markings on the receiver. As the Chinese military was no longer using the SKS in 1994, there is ample evidence that it was intended for the commercial market where bubba got his hands on it.
We at sksfiles recognize the grey area and dont flame anyone over their interpretation of commercial/not commercial.
Quote from: CARBINE on February 22, 2016, 09:49:35 PM
Quote from: Power Surge on February 22, 2016, 07:23:01 PM
To me, the definitions are very simple....
Made to be issued to military or other government agency - surplus.
Made to be sold to civilian market - commercial.
It doesn't matter if it's a new production model, or a model rebuilt from a surplus gun. If it was made to be sold to the civilian market, it's a commercial gun.
I have to agree with PS on this one, this sums it up nicely in my opinion.
I'm in this camp also, there is nothing complicated about this except what we might make of it. One can take a turd, dry it out, paint it, put cologne on it but it's still a turd.
Good input guys. Glad to have you thinking things through like this. thumb1
In the end, "commercial vs military" is really just a tool used by the collecting community to help sort/categorize things just a bit better.