New to the site, but not new to the SKS. Picked up a 1960 Romanian today to fill the hole in my collection. Mildly disappointed in the fact that every number matches, from the buttplate to the rear sight, EVERYTHING but the stinking gas piston.....and it's 4 digits off. Arrgggghhh! Piston is pristine clean, too, so it was likely never fired after being swapped. Anyway, nice wood with matching SN, cartouches, and stampings in the finger grooves, metal is very nice, and came with the cleaning rod and sling. Outside of that stupid gas piston, I think I did OK.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/1960%20Romy%20SKS_zps7fdogj3h.jpg)
'ok' depends on price I guess, but yep..... Crazy nice Romy you have there!
Paid $400; didn't figure that was too bad. Guy wanted $425, but I talked him out of that extra 25 bucks - told him I "wanted to feel like I made a deal". I've bought a few others from him before, so he just laughed and accepted the offer.
An almost all matching Romy with a $50 sling..... Your a thief! :))
You could easily find an unnumbered gas piston from somewhere and it would then be a total non-issue.
If the stock is matching and has the original font S/N on it, you've got a winner regardless what's EP'd on the piston. A number being 4 digits off, heck how do you know that the worker didn't have a brain fart and mess up that last digit on it? It's been seen with Russian SKSs many times before...
@ $400, that was a great buy. thumb1
Quote from: running-man on September 04, 2016, 10:44:02 PM
You could easily find an unnumbered gas piston from somewhere and it would then be a total non-issue.
If the stock is matching and has the original font S/N on it, you've got a winner regardless what's EP'd on the piston. A number being 4 digits off, heck how do you know that the worker didn't have a brain fart and mess up that last digit on it? It's been seen with Russian SKSs many times before...
@ $400, that was a great buy. thumb1
Thanks. I thought about an unnumbered piston - is there any difference between the Rommy and some of the others? I've never thought to look for differences. I also thought about a factory mix-up; I've got an Albanian that has matching numbers but for the stock, and those numbers are the same, with the last two flipped. Kind of wondered about the same thing there.
The guy sent me a pic of the rifle a few months ago after I bought a package deal from him for a steal (1 Russian non-refurb, 2 Russian light refurbs, and a Chinese blade para). He called it a "laminated Chinese", but I caught the arrow-in-triangle on the receiver and knew better. He said he was going to hang onto it for the time being. Just on a whim I sent him a text asking about it again yesterday, and he was willing to sell. I thought that was one of the hard to find slings with it - it's in nice shape, too. I really like the wood on it, different than any of my other nation's rifles. I guess I need to verify that font you mentioned; I'm pretty sure it's original. I'll post a pic of the markings in the morning.
I think if you keep your replacement to an early '56 through say a '65 fabricated component from another nation you should be ok. Gas pistons 'should' be universal replacements in any SKS, but we all know that 'should' and 'are' sometimes don't work out the way we'd like them to. Lengths should be good as should the diameters of the piston shaft. Only differences I'd be concerned about would be the piston head diameter fitting into your current gas tube. Too tight a fit and you'll have jammed piston along with cycling issues.
Quote from: running-man on September 04, 2016, 11:41:19 PM
I Only differences I'd be concerned about would be the piston head diameter fitting into your current gas tube. Too tight a fit and you'll have jammed piston along with cycling issues.
Even then, the piston chucked in a drill and some emery cloth will solve that issue :)
In my opinion :o .... It seems like a whole lot of trouble for 4 little digits. If it is a Romanian piston, leave it be, it's an actual original part, be thankful it doesn't say Tapco. If 4 serial digits bothers one that much, how is sticking a still mismatching Chinese, Yugoslavian, Russian or Albanian gas piston going to make it match, then that part is technically not original Romanian like the one in it. In my book, knowing the Romanians marked their pistons, I would still deem it a mismatched rifle even with a numberless piston.
It''s a Romanian, 98% of the time they don't match, it's the nature of the beast. But, hey, what do I know, I will bet it works just fine as is, my 3 mismatched ones work as well as the matching one thumb1
Take a brillo pad and scrub them offending numbers off.
Congrats on a nice purchase thumb1 and welcome...
That is one of the nicest Romy's ive seen in a long time. That fish scale stock is very cool looking. especially there in the sun . Id be sticking my chest out if the only part not matching was the piston rod. Yea get a brillo pad or buy yourself an EP engraver and get to work :).. Id like to see more pics of that stock !
I would be very happy with that Romy! You got a heck of a deal and didn't even have to be a sniper on Feebay to get the sling! You did well cztulsa.
Very nice Rommy there!! thumb1
As a novice collector, if it were me, I'd leave that gas piston alone. Everything else matches on that gun and it is obvious it is not an arsenal refurb, so anyone with more than a couple of functioning brain cells would know it is original to the gun. To mess with the gas piston, in my opinion, would be the same as Mitchell's "creating" one of their matching Mausers.... :o
Quote from: montigre on September 05, 2016, 08:44:23 AM
Very nice Rommy there!! thumb1
As a novice collector, if it were me, I'd leave that gas piston alone. Everything else matches on that gun and it is obvious it is not an arsenal refurb, so anyone with more than a couple of functioning brain cells would know it is original to the gun. To mess with the gas piston, in my opinion, would be the same as Mitchell's "creating" one of their matching Mausers.... :o
Yeah - I thought about it a bit last night and will just leave that piston alone. Like running-man said, who's to say someone at the arsenal didn't screw up? Everything else is spot on. I'll get a few more pics once we have some better light outside and I clean it up a bit; the fish scaling isn't near as prevalent on the right side as the left, but it is a pretty unique stock they put on it. Never seen one like that before.
Quote from: montigre on September 05, 2016, 08:44:23 AM
Very nice Rommy there!! thumb1
As a novice collector, if it were me, I'd leave that gas piston alone. Everything else matches on that gun and it is obvious it is not an arsenal refurb, so anyone with more than a couple of functioning brain cells would know it is original to the gun. To mess with the gas piston, in my opinion, would be the same as Mitchell's "creating" one of their matching Mausers.... :o
I don't know that I'd be as comfortable with that statement as you are montigre. Even having any given rifle in my hands for a thorough inspection, I would never be able to make the call that a gun is unrefurbed/unissued/unfired. There are just too many things the collecting community simply doesn't know about the refurb process for me to ever be comfortable using any one of those three labels. "As-Issued" does not imply that the rifle has had no work done to it - guns in this category may have had a light reshellac or a replacement of an unnumbered component. They most certainly have been taken down, inspected, and cleaned if nothing else. Unless one knows the entire history of the firearm from birth on the assembly line, to issuance, to storage etc., I think it's an impossibly tough sell to try and definitively call something unrefurbed/unissued/unfired. (Think of some of the M1 Garands sitting in the Springfield Armory Museum collection that were pulled directly from the line for presentation to various high level individuals collections and from there made their way to the museum)
Here is the offending gas piston. More pics to come.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/Rommy%20SKS%20Piston_zpshfzlxkzh.jpg)
Quote from: cztulsa on September 05, 2016, 10:08:09 AM
Here is the offending gas piston. More pics to come.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/Rommy%20SKS%20Piston_zpshfzlxkzh.jpg)
I would definitely leave that with the gun. Either the guy at the arsenal flaked out and put two 4s instead an 8, or the piston got swapped with the one for 844...either way it's much more likely that rifle left the arsenal with that piston than it is that someone on the outside world had a gas piston issue and was able to find one close to your serial. Just my 2 cents :)
Yea looks like Hugo missed it by one number lol. I'd be looking for a blank matching gas piston and get to work
With the electro pincel myself. It was meant to match anyways.
Nearly every SKS I've ever bought has been a toilet inside - people just can't find it in their hearts to clean them, I guess. This is the end of the piston - I've never seen one this clean. I'm 99% sure it's never been fired, at least with this piston.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/SKS%20Piston_zpszkhqq4ju.jpg)
Here is side "B"; not near as much fish-scale, but still a lot of figure in the wood.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/Rommy%20SKS%20Side%20B_zpsl6afpgso.jpg)
Interesting. Looks like the same Beech wood that the Albanians used on their Chinese replacement stocks. Is that normal for a Romy?
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/Rommy%20Stock%20SN_zpsomkwrxvp.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/Rommy%20SKS%20Wrist%20Markings_zps81k3kvhx.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/Rommy%20Finger%20Groove_zpsxogaqwne.jpg)
Quote from: running-man on September 05, 2016, 10:07:16 AM
I don't know that I'd be as comfortable with that statement as you are montigre. Even having any given rifle in my hands for a thorough inspection, I would never be able to make the call that a gun is unrefurbed/unissued/unfired. There are just too many things the collecting community simply doesn't know about the refurb process for me to ever be comfortable using any one of those three labels. "As-Issued" does not imply that the rifle has had no work done to it - guns in this category may have had a light reshellac or a replacement of an unnumbered component. They most certainly have been taken down, inspected, and cleaned if nothing else. Unless one knows the entire history of the firearm from birth on the assembly line, to issuance, to storage etc., I think it's an impossibly tough sell to try and definitively call something unrefurbed/unissued/unfired. (Think of some of the M1 Garands sitting in the Springfield Armory Museum collection that were pulled directly from the line for presentation to various high level individuals collections and from there made their way to the museum)
I see and understand your point. However, as a collector, there should be some acceptable vernacular to use when describing a gun that has no obvious marks indicating an arsenal refurb or rebuild. I'm not going to get into unfired, because all of them were at least fired at the factory, so that descriptive should probably be omitted. However, to speak to the as issued or unissued guns, I have 2 SKSs that I can state with 99% certainty that their condition would be described as "as issued". One is a matching Yugo 59/66 that came with the log indicating it was never issued; only checked over and is in pristine condition. The other is a matching KBI imported Tula Russian that is also in pristine condition, came in the original importers box, but obviously has no log and has no factory refurb marks.
The other SKSs I own (except for my '54 Tula mix master range buddy), though matching and in very good shape, I obviously cannot state they are unissued without some form of noted provenance, but by the same token, lacking clear-cut refurb marks or obvious signs of factory work (over sanding, mis-matched shellac, incorrect period parts, etc) I can not honestly state that they are not in "as issued" condition as they appear to be.
Are we just splitting hairs here in our descriptions for the unissued SKSs?
OK - one last pic, because I've about worn this thread out, but I'm a bit excited by this one. I've never owned one I thought was "unfired", but this has to be as close as I've come. Gave it a good cleaning, and there was still cosmo inside (and probably still some I missed). Lots of cool stamps. I ran a white rag inside the gas block and gas tube - no soot, only a trace of cosmoline. The bolt and carrier show no real wear; the bolt face looks brand new. I know they fire them, but this one may have gotten a quick refurb, and then straight to storage?
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww147/kellycj/Rommy%20SKS%20Bolt_zpssjtjxcjq.jpg)
QuoteOne is a matching Yugo 59/66 that came with the log indicating it was never issued; only checked over and is in pristine condition. The other is a matching KBI imported Tula Russian that is also in pristine condition, came in the original importers box, but obviously has no log and has no factory refurb marks.
Is the date in the book the date it was built, or later. Yugoslavian books were chucked during a refurb and a new book issued, while it may be unissued in its current state, it is not technically unissued. Why rebuild a never issued rifle, it was issued, used hard and then rebuilt, it's on it's second life. And I bet the Russian has had something done to it, at least a through inspection, they just didn't pull it off a storage shelf, box it and ship it.
Romanian wood can vary wildly, some are just bla, monotone, hohum hunks of wood yawn1
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Romanian%20sks/58%20Romanian/SAM_1406_zpsb6f85cab.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Romanian%20sks/58%20Romanian/SAM_1406_zpsb6f85cab.jpg.html)
Others are just like...POW....BLAM explode1 chuckles1
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Romanian%20sks/SAM_1291_zpsnwf3egdp.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Romanian%20sks/SAM_1291_zpsnwf3egdp.jpg.html)
One of my favorites, a 1960 just like the OPs, just to show how wildly mismatched one can get, it has nothing matching, not a single part, even the rear sight leaf is mismatched. I got a whole collection of serial prefixes and numbers and a Yugoslavian bolt, a nice beat to death stock, and I wouldn't trade it for another. It's a Johnny Cash rifle, One piece at a time SKS chuckles1
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Romanian%20sks/0442_zps80a4f01f.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Romanian%20sks/0442_zps80a4f01f.jpg.html)
Looks as 'as issued' as a Romy can get to me.. thumb1
How much? Wanna trade? Two chinese? Hit me....
Not even really sure what one in this condition is worth - I have a grasp of Russians and Chinese, but Rommys are kind of gray to me. This one is a keeper; I've been watching for one for the last few years, but they don't come up very often locally. Passed on one about a year ago for a bit less, but it wasn't near as nice as this one. I'd say it's worth at least the $400 I paid for it, anyway.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on September 05, 2016, 02:09:20 PM
QuoteOne is a matching Yugo 59/66 that came with the log indicating it was never issued; only checked over and is in pristine condition. The other is a matching KBI imported Tula Russian that is also in pristine condition, came in the original importers box, but obviously has no log and has no factory refurb marks.
Is the date in the book the date it was built, or later. Yugoslavian books were chucked during a refurb and a new book issued, while it may be unissued in its current state, it is not technically unissued. Why rebuild a never issued rifle, it was issued, used hard and then rebuilt, it's on it's second life. And I bet the Russian has had something done to it, at least a through inspection, they just didn't pull it off a storage shelf, box it and ship it.
Actually, the year of manufacture of the 59/66 was 1971 (it has an "H" prefix) and the arsenal papers I received with it are dated June 30, 2006. The papers list that the gun was still without any discernible wear (NAJ 0%), verified its caliber (KAL 7,64mm) and listed the condition as "unspoiled" (TEH. Brezhibno [translates roughly into English as "condition like a charm"]).
Branko Bogdanovic, in his book on Yugoslavian Mausers, noted that it was standard practice for the Yugo military to remove each gun in storage every 5 years, clean it, perhaps test fire it, and then reapply the cosmoline and return it to storage or crate it for sale. Since Branko was in the Yugo army and had to personally perform this duty, he represents a pretty good primary source for this data.
However, with regard to the Russian SKSs, since Russia did not produce logs with their exported SKSs one can only assume a particular SKS to be in "as issued" condition, but it seems it would be a fairly safe assumption to make only IF there are no other hints of a rework on said gun. wink1
Quote from: cztulsa on September 05, 2016, 04:12:15 PM
Not even really sure what one in this condition is worth - I have a grasp of Russians and Chinese, but Rommys are kind of gray to me. This one is a keeper; I've been watching for one for the last few years, but they don't come up very often locally. Passed on one about a year ago for a bit less, but it wasn't near as nice as this one. I'd say it's worth at least the $400 I paid for it, anyway.
I would say about $600 with sling. Or.... Two chinamen.
Quote from: montigre on September 05, 2016, 12:26:34 PM
I see and understand your point. However, as a collector, there should be some acceptable vernacular to use when describing a gun that has no obvious marks indicating an arsenal refurb or rebuild. I'm not going to get into unfired, because all of them were at least fired at the factory, so that descriptive should probably be omitted. However, to speak to the as issued or unissued guns, I have 2 SKSs that I can state with 99% certainty that their condition would be described as "as issued". One is a matching Yugo 59/66 that came with the log indicating it was never issued; only checked over and is in pristine condition. The other is a matching KBI imported Tula Russian that is also in pristine condition, came in the original importers box, but obviously has no log and has no factory refurb marks.
The other SKSs I own (except for my '54 Tula mix master range buddy), though matching and in very good shape, I obviously cannot state they are unissued without some form of noted provenance, but by the same token, lacking clear-cut refurb marks or obvious signs of factory work (over sanding, mis-matched shellac, incorrect period parts, etc) I can not honestly state that they are not in "as issued" condition as they appear to be.
Are we just splitting hairs here in our descriptions for the unissued SKSs?
Many would consider it to be splitting hairs. The term for a pristine gun here is 'as-issued'. People often use the terms non-refurbed and as-issued interchangeably much as they do clip and magazine, receiver cover and dust cover, etc. I'm certainly not going to beat anyone over the head as the terminology police like you see on other forums where certain jackwagons envicerate the newbies who would dare to call their type 56 a "Norinco". I do, however, think it's good to think about what something means to make sure we're all saying what we really mean though. My definitions would be something like this
- as-issued: As the gun looked when it was first issued. Parts are all original as far as can be determined by comparison with other comparable pristine looking specimens. No blatantly apparent refurb stamp or other signs of refurb on the gun, though nothing about the true refurb condition of the gun is known or inferred.
- non-refurbed: Never having gone through a refurb process. Since the entire refurb processes of Iron Curtain nations are simply not known, this is an absolutely unknowable condition. Anyone who claims a gun is non-refurb is making a guess (perhaps educated, but a guess nonetheless) that they have no proof to back up. Might as well say that XYZ SKS was in the personal possession of Stalin/Mao/Hoxha/Tito at one time too! chuckles1
The only reason I think this is a big deal is because SKS-Files has been accused by other forums of simply making stuff up, making incorrect wild-a** guesses, leading noobs astray, coming to incorrect conclusions and doing shoddy work in general. Best not to give them additional ammunition with which to beat us over the head with. We think we have a reasonably good handle on what constitutes an as-issued specimen based on the data we've collected but we don't know enough to make a claim that any given SKS is unissued/non-refurbished/unfired. If a member thinks they can, that's great, but don't be too surprised if someone calls for something more substantial than "I think it is because..." when you make that assertion.
I'm not as issued.... Started falling apart around 2004. fart1
How much for the Romy? bat1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 05, 2016, 09:05:31 PM
I'm not as issued.... Started falling apart around 2004. fart1
How much for the Romy? bat1
I'm a bit worse for wear myself and could probably use at least a light refurb. Only shoot blanks, need to upgrade my glass, my exterior finish is showing signs of age and abuse... chuckles1
Quote from: running-man on September 05, 2016, 08:49:07 PM
Many would consider it to be splitting hairs. The term for a pristine gun here is 'as-issued'. People often use the terms non-refurbed and as-issued interchangeably much as they do clip and magazine, receiver cover and dust cover, etc. I'm certainly not going to beat anyone over the head as the terminology police like you see on other forums where certain jackwagons envicerate the newbies who would dare to call their type 56 a "Norinco". I do, however, think it's good to think about what something means to make sure we're all saying what we really mean though. My definitions would be something like this
- as-issued: As the gun looked when it was first issued. Parts are all original as far as can be determined by comparison with other comparable pristine looking specimens. No blatantly apparent refurb stamp or other signs of refurb on the gun, though nothing about the true refurb condition of the gun is known or inferred.
- non-refurbed: Never having gone through a refurb process. Since the entire refurb processes of Iron Curtain nations are simply not known, this is an absolutely unknowable condition. Anyone who claims a gun is non-refurb is making a guess (perhaps educated, but a guess nonetheless) that they have no proof to back up. Might as well say that XYZ SKS was in the personal possession of Stalin/Mao/Hoxha/Tito at one time too! chuckles1
The only reason I think this is a big deal is because SKS-Files has been accused by other forums of simply making stuff up, making incorrect wild-a** guesses, leading noobs astray, coming to incorrect conclusions and doing shoddy work in general. Best not to give them additional ammunition with which to beat us over the head with. We think we have a reasonably good handle on what constitutes an as-issued specimen based on the data we've collected but we don't know enough to make a claim that any given SKS is unissued/non-refurbished/unfired. If a member thinks they can, that's great, but don't be too surprised if someone calls for something more substantial than "I think it is because..." when you make that assertion.
Okay, I can agree with the your premise that the term "non-refurbished" should not be used when describing these guns especially since all of our C&Rs have likely gone through at least one inspection, whether worked on or not, that would technically constitute a form of refurbishment and we have no way of knowing exactly what may have been done to it at the arsenal when inspected. I also agree that the term "un issued" should only be used when there is proof of provenance associated with a particular gun (like the log for my M59/66). thumb1
With that out of the way, how is it best to differentiate between an as issued C&R that is in "pristine" condition and an as issued C&R that shows obvious wear, but still sports all of the original parts? I've been chopped on a little here already by using the term "factory original" instead of "as issued" when describing one of my SKSs (I believe it was the '52 Tula I recently purchased). Was that term just not one that is accepted within the collecting community? :)
cztulsa, you have a very nice "as issued" Romanian SKS!!! thumb1
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on September 05, 2016, 09:18:05 PM
I'm a bit worse for wear myself and could probably use at least a light refurb. Only shoot blanks, need to upgrade my glass, my exterior finish is showing signs of age and abuse... chuckles1
Same here....Already underwent a moderate refurb (love my ortho docs!!), my glass is not as clear as when new, but my bluing and shellac is still going strong. rofl
LC, I doubt you'll get your paws on that cute Romanian any time soon.... nea1 rofl2
QuoteQuote from: running-man on Today at 08:49:07 PM
Many would consider it to be splitting hairs. The term for a pristine gun here is 'as-issued'. People often use the terms non-refurbed and as-issued interchangeably much as they do clip and magazine, receiver cover and dust cover, etc. I'm certainly not going to beat anyone over the head as the terminology police like you see on other forums where certain jackwagons envicerate the newbies who would dare to call their type 56 a "Norinco". I do, however, think it's good to think about what something means to make sure we're all saying what we really mean though. My definitions would be something like this
as-issued: As the gun looked when it was first issued. Parts are all original as far as can be determined by comparison with other comparable pristine looking specimens. No blatantly apparent refurb stamp or other signs of refurb on the gun, though nothing about the true refurb condition of the gun is known or inferred.
non-refurbed: Never having gone through a refurb process. Since the entire refurb processes of Iron Curtain nations are simply not known, this is an absolutely unknowable condition. Anyone who claims a gun is non-refurb is making a guess (perhaps educated, but a guess nonetheless) that they have no proof to back up. Might as well say that XYZ SKS was in the personal possession of Stalin/Mao/Hoxha/Tito at one time too! chuckles1
The only reason I think this is a big deal is because SKS-Files has been accused by other forums of simply making stuff up, making incorrect wild-a** guesses, leading noobs astray, coming to incorrect conclusions and doing shoddy work in general. Best not to give them additional ammunition with which to beat us over the head with. We think we have a reasonably good handle on what constitutes an as-issued specimen based on the data we've collected but we don't know enough to make a claim that any given SKS is unissued/non-refurbished/unfired. If a member thinks they can, that's great, but don't be too surprised if someone calls for something more substantial than "I think it is because..." when you make that assertion.
Okay, I can agree with the your premise that the term "non-refurbished" should not be used when describing these guns especially since all of our C&Rs have likely gone through at least one inspection, whether worked on or not, that would technically constitute a form of refurbishment and we have no way of knowing exactly what may have been done to it at the arsenal when inspected. I also agree that the term "un issued" should only be used when there is proof of provenance associated with a particular gun (like the log for my M59/66). thumb1
With that out of the way, how is it best to differentiate between an as issued C&R that is in "pristine" condition and an as issued C&R that shows obvious wear, but still sports all of the original parts? I've been chopped on a little here already by using the term "factory original" instead of "as issued" when describing one of my SKSs (I believe it was the '52 Tula I recently purchased). Was that term just not one that is accepted within the collecting community? :)
Just me....and it's gotta come out... :o sometimes I think way to much emphasis gets thrown on this whole mess... I've seen alot of purdy rifles, and the posters only concern is, is it refurb or not refurb, no, oh it's nice, enjoy it, range report or whatever.. It is what it is, it can not be changed. I'm of the mind, regardless if it's completely refurbed, rebarreled and scrubbed, reserialed and restocked or as it was tugged out of Ivans or Vlads paws after their rigor mortis set in. I don't care if somebody else don't like it cause it's refurbed, I don't buy my weapons to impress other collectors, I'm all about me when I plunk down my dollars, if I get movement in the Cintas drawers, I'm gonna buy it. :)
The whole mess of refurb or original, factory this, light refurb that, scrubbed 6 ways from Sunday, restamped over and XXX'ed out just overly complicates things.
Quote from: montigre on September 05, 2016, 09:20:44 PM
Okay, I can agree with the your premise that the term "non-refurbished" should not be used when describing these guns especially since all of our C&Rs have likely gone through at least one inspection, whether worked on or not, that would technically constitute a form of refurbishment and we have no way of knowing exactly what may have been done to it at the arsenal when inspected. I also agree that the term "un issued" should only be used when there is proof of provenance associated with a particular gun (like the log for my M59/66). thumb1
With that out of the way, how is it best to differentiate between an as issued C&R that is in "pristine" condition and an as issued C&R that shows obvious wear, but still sports all of the original parts? I've been chopped on a little here already by using the term "factory original" instead of "as issued" when describing one of my SKSs (I believe it was the '52 Tula I recently purchased). Was that term just not one that is accepted within the collecting community? :)
cztulsa, you have a very nice "as issued" Romanian SKS!!! thumb1
That's where the "Current Condition" designator in the GB listings comes into play. You could have a gun that is in "As-Issued" arsenal condition, and "Very Good" Current Condition and it would generally be more desirable (i.e. cost more $$) than a "refurbished" gun in the same Current Condition. You could also have an "As-Issued" Arsenal Condition firearm in "Fair" Current Condition. Put that up against a "refurbished" Arsenal Condition gun in "Very Good" Current Condition and I think you'll find certain collectors will lean different ways as to which gun they would rather have. It's a good exercise to think about it though. Sometimes the GB auctions still surprise me when people pony up big $ for a gun I consider not very desireable
I would rate CZ's gun as As-Issued, Good (perhaps Very Good if he got a cleaning kit and was able to come up with the original box/hang tag/instruction book, etc.) It's quite a beautiful gun. I know that S/N'd gas piston is driving him nuts, but honestly, that's pretty minor in the grand scheme of things especially compared to the typical chewed up mismatched stocks these guys often sport. thumb1
Quote from: Greasemonkey on September 05, 2016, 09:45:16 PM
Just me....and it's gotta come out... :o sometimes I think way to much emphasis gets thrown on this whole mess... I've seen alot of purdy rifles, and the posters only concern is, is it refurb or not refurb, no, oh it's nice, enjoy it, range report or whatever.. It is what it is, it can not be changed. I'm of the mind, regardless if it's completely refurbed, rebarreled and scrubbed, reserialed and restocked or as it was tugged out of Ivans or Vlads paws after their rigor mortis set in. I don't care if somebody else don't like it cause it's refurbed, I don't buy my weapons to impress other collectors, I'm all about me when I plunk down my dollars, if I get movement in the Cintas drawers, I'm gonna buy it. :)
The whole mess of refurb or original, factory this, light refurb that, scrubbed 6 ways from Sunday, restamped over and XXX'ed out just overly complicates things.
I know Jimmy's been on his best behavior! rofl The only reason to care is to try and figure out how many dollars it's worth shelling out for XYZ specimen. W/o a concrete set of somewhat universally desirable traits, there's absolutely no way to do this. Sports card collectors order their desirable traits as do stamp and coin collectors. Heck even beanie baby collectors have their own criteria for their collectables.
Now it's a fair question to ask: "Should as-issued vs. refurb count so much in the grand scheme of SKS collecting?" The market seems to say so. dntknw1 Sometimes the market isn't right though... thumb1
Quote from: montigre on September 05, 2016, 09:25:30 PM
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on September 05, 2016, 09:18:05 PM
I'm a bit worse for wear myself and could probably use at least a light refurb. Only shoot blanks, need to upgrade my glass, my exterior finish is showing signs of age and abuse... chuckles1
Same here....Already underwent a moderate refurb (love my ortho docs!!), my glass is not as clear as when new, but my bluing and shellac is still going strong. rofl
LC, I doubt you'll get your paws on that cute Romanian any time soon.... nea1 rofl2
Heck, I've been getting refurbed since I was 11.
As for LC wanting a cute Romanian there are websites for that...wait, you meant as in a Romanian rifle? Nevermind, I didn't say anything... rofl
Quote from: running-man on September 05, 2016, 10:22:33 PM
I would rate CZ's gun as As-Issued, Good (perhaps Very Good if he got a cleaning kit and was able to come up with the original box/hang tag/instruction book, etc.)
As in the cleaning kit in the stock? If so, it's there. Original box is likely long gone, as well as all the rest. Was told that it came from an old collector who ended up in a nursing home, and his daughter was selling off all of his old guns. This was sold in a 12-rifle lot, most of which were Chinese and Russian - and likely why my seller thought it was Chinese.