I found this one in the August GB auctions set. DP Jilin gun with a B-West import stamp. Nothing terribly special going on here:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/21004281_receiver.jpg)
Note that it has the letters "JH" far to the right of the S/N stamping. We know that those letters are not from the original S/N stamping at the time of fabrication.
Now look at the Nationwide Sports box label:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/DB_DP/21004281_box.jpg)
They clearly utilized the extra lettering in the unique S/N on this one as the official box S/N incorporates the JH. I just thought it was an interesting data point. Maybe we can put this one fully to rest with some additional data. I still believe that the extra prefix or suffix letters we commonly see were placed on there during export (or possibly at the bond warehouse) when recording the final S/N's for importer bound book records.
That's an interesting catch RM!
Now, the question is, does the label say that because the gun already did, or was the gun stamped because that was it's new designation? Chicken before the egg stuff....
But the one that I've noticed about all these extra stamping, is that they are always blued. Meaning they were done before the action was blued....
Ever stamped a blued surface? It just smooshes the surface and retains the bluing. All serials are stamped at the end of the manufacturing process but yet the stamps retain bluing.
Im with RM... I still think they came in this way. Far too many from various importers etc to have been done here, and they really dont serve any purpose to an importer. I can see adding a number here/there when a duplicate is found, or a full blown replacement of the serial like some have been known to do. I think Justin and I have guns from the same importer with the same letter.
Maybe I should get out the ole stamp set and that receiver I have with fractured rails and do some stamping.
This is the gun I was asking about in the other thread. https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=2635.0
I do not yet have it in hand, so I cannot tell if there are any other unique features about it other than the suffix, but when it comes in, I will certainly give it a good going over. I bought it because of the "DP" prefix and also for the unusual (to me) lettered suffix....
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 05, 2016, 01:19:54 AM
Im with RM... I still think they came in this way. Far too many from various importers etc to have been done here, and they really dont serve any purpose to an importer. I can see adding a number here/there when a duplicate is found, or a full blown replacement of the serial like some have been known to do. I think Justin and I have guns from the same importer with the same letter.
Maybe I should get out the ole stamp set and that receiver I have with fractured rails and do some stamping.
It's possible..... but I just stamped a 2 into a Chinese letter gun receiver I have and there's way more silver exposed that blue left...
I am curious what letters have been seen, whether they are prefix or suffix, and if they appear as single letters or groups of two.
My B-West imports both have two letters, /26\ 9m has M L and my DB has B P both as suffixes with spaces between letters...
My CSI /206\ has a C prefix...it may even be lowercase, it is certainly smaller than the numbers.
My KSI /26\ 10m has a P suffix...
My Poly USA /26\ 23m has a K suffix....
If all of one importer's happen to have two letters, it would lend towards the thought it was done by them. If all of one importer's happen to use the same letter, the same might be assumed.
It would be interesting to see if ranges of guns were added to since from factory to factory ranges were shared... Are there any duplicate serials in the survey that are only differentiated by factory or these mystery letters?
One could reasonably assume importers and the ATF may have been oblivious to the factory stampings...and just consider them to be Chinese jibberish and only pay attention to the numbers. I can see vast amounts of these added to (more than half of my Chinese have letters and they aren't letter guns) if the shared ranges from various factories would just be considered another Chinese SKS.
I have thought in the past and still consider it odd that some say this serial duplication issue would have mattered no matter what type of firearm it was. Perhaps that is actually the case, but if so...it seems like any idiot could tell the difference between an AK and an SKS....especially with all the import stamp information billboarded all over what previously was a perfectly identifiable unmolested gun.
I find it very difficult to believe someone would be able to even catch duplicates unless they knew for sure there were shared ranges...individual guns would fall through the cracks, and it would be very unlikely that I would happen to have four of them. Without a fast computer at their disposal with a considerable hard drive....not running on floppies....I would think it would be nearly impossible to catch them individually in the field.
It could very well be that the Chinese added these post serial for completely different reasons. For instance, specially marked rifles for 'accuracy' may have been marked differently from factory to factory....or it's intended recipient may have been added later, or perhaps they were marked by the recipient sort of like an asset tag would be used here. Then there is the chance they are refurb/proof marks that you may not see on every example.
It would be cool if we could come up with some kind of similarities that would lend insight into what they mean...I sure would like to know.
Quote from: Justin Hell on September 07, 2016, 04:30:05 PM
I am curious what letters have been seen, whether they are prefix or suffix, and if they appear as single letters or groups of two.
My B-West imports both have two letters, /26\ 9m has M L and my DB has B P both as suffixes with spaces between letters...
My CSI /206\ has a C prefix...it may even be lowercase, it is certainly smaller than the numbers.
My KSI /26\ 10m has a P suffix...
My Poly USA /26\ 23m has a K suffix....
If all of one importer's happen to have two letters, it would lend towards the thought it was done by them. If all of one importer's happen to use the same letter, the same might be assumed.
It would be interesting to see if ranges of guns were added to since from factory to factory ranges were shared... Are there any duplicate serials in the survey that are only differentiated by factory or these mystery letters?
One could reasonably assume importers and the ATF may have been oblivious to the factory stampings...and just consider them to be Chinese jibberish and only pay attention to the numbers. I can see vast amounts of these added to (more than half of my Chinese have letters and they aren't letter guns) if the shared ranges from various factories would just be considered another Chinese SKS.
I have thought in the past and still consider it odd that some say this serial duplication issue would have mattered no matter what type of firearm it was. Perhaps that is actually the case, but if so...it seems like any idiot could tell the difference between an AK and an SKS....especially with all the import stamp information billboarded all over what previously was a perfectly identifiable unmolested gun.
I find it very difficult to believe someone would be able to even catch duplicates unless they knew for sure there were shared ranges...individual guns would fall through the cracks, and it would be very unlikely that I would happen to have four of them. Without a fast computer at their disposal with a considerable hard drive....not running on floppies....I would think it would be nearly impossible to catch them individually in the field.
It could very well be that the Chinese added these post serial for completely different reasons. For instance, specially marked rifles for 'accuracy' may have been marked differently from factory to factory....or it's intended recipient may have been added later, or perhaps they were marked by the recipient sort of like an asset tag would be used here. Then there is the chance they are refurb/proof marks that you may not see on every example.
It would be cool if we could come up with some kind of similarities that would lend insight into what they mean...I sure would like to know.
Good insight Justin. I'll add one point of clarification. BATF's rules for unique serial numbers do not require that all Chinese SKSs imported into the US have a unique serial number. What the rules do state is this (red emphasis mine):
Quote from: 27 CFR §478.92How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
(i) By engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing or causing to be engraved, cast, stamped (impressed) or placed on the frame or receiver thereof an individual serial number. The serial number must be placed in a manner not susceptible of being readily obliterated, altered, or removed, and must not duplicate any serial number placed by you on any other firearm. For firearms manufactured or imported on and after January 30, 2002, the engraving, casting, or stamping (impressing) of the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1⁄16 inch; and
Specifically that you as the importer must ensure that no two firearms that *you* import have the same S/N. So all CAI guns imported from the 80's to last year must all be unique, but all Chinese SKSs imported from 1984 to now do not necessarily need to be unless they were imported by the same company. It doesn't matter if one is an old Mauser rifle and the other is a brand new FN pistol, they need to have different S/Ns. The major importers run into this issue far more often than the one and done importers. A small mom & pop shop like Valley Gun that imported only a few thousand guns over their business lifetime of a few years probably never had to deal with this. Century, TGI, or I.O. probably routinely run into stuff like this and often check their records to ensure that numbers are not duplicated. Indeed we see what importer specific stampings used to differentiate duplicate numbers look like in certain recent imports:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/FAQ_Items/276497_receiver.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Yugo/LB%20M59/079_receiver.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Yugo/B15215_receiver.jpg)
Of course, older imports could easily have been differentiated with a single additional prefix or suffix stamp as those stamps were what they used in many of the import stamps. The jury is still out, we'll need to compile much more information before we can make any kind of a judgement I think. My gut tells me the prefix/suffix marks are not importer stamped, the differences in the letters and the actual import stamps are pretty strikingly noticeable.
Quote from: Justin Hell on September 07, 2016, 04:30:05 PM
I am curious what letters have been seen, whether they are prefix or suffix, and if they appear as single letters or groups of two.
My B-West imports both have two letters, /26\ 9m has M L and my DB has B P both as suffixes with spaces between letters...
My CSI /206\ has a C prefix...it may even be lowercase, it is certainly smaller than the numbers.
My KSI /26\ 10m has a P suffix...
My Poly USA /26\ 23m has a K suffix....
It would be cool if we could come up with some kind of similarities that would lend insight into what they mean...I sure would like to know.
Good idea. I have only 2 Chinese SKSs at the moment:
1) B West DP "Jilin Type 56" in Chinese characters followed by the SN with a JH suffix following the SN stamped as 2 letters together
2) KFS /416\ with no prefix or suffix around the SN (special forces gun)
If someone wants to create a data clection thread organizing the letters, arsenals, importer etc, I'll be more then happy to sticky it. thumb1
We are data monters.... Dont forget it. :))
Found this one while cruising GB. This is another DP from Jilin imported by B West and distributed by Nationwide (like mine), but does not have a suffix:
(http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/montigre/B%20West%20SKS/B%20West%20DP%20SKS%201_zpsl0luazgd.jpg)
(http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/montigre/B%20West%20SKS/B%20West%20DP%20SKS_zpskjddhmf9.jpg)
(http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/montigre/B%20West%20SKS/B%20West%20DP%20SKS%20Butt%20stock_zpsuyeiawqz.jpg)
(http://i1269.photobucket.com/albums/jj597/montigre/B%20West%20SKS/B%20West%20SKS%20Box%20no%20suffix_zpsnzvptwq0.jpg)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 07, 2016, 08:22:30 PM
If someone wants to create a data clection thread organizing the letters, arsenals, importer etc, I'll be more then happy to sticky it. thumb1
We are data monters.... Dont forget it. :))
Since it was my question that started this mess, I probably should be the victim to collect and organize the data. :o Just let me know what would be the best format to use since this will be on on-going project for a while....
I really like what I'm reading here, makes my touch of OCD tingle :)) If you want to tackle it Montigre, I'd be willing to help when/where I can thumb1. At the very least, I can dig out my chinese SKSs to see what can be added :)
I dunno.... Hit me.
Here's my Debbie Downer input for what it's worth:
I started to post prefix and suffix on guns in the NON-/26\ Serial/Arsenal Data Collection Thread (https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=393.0). Look at some of the /216\ and /306\ guns with parenthesis for example. The problem with that is there is zero import stamp info, and I know I don't have every single prefix/suffix called out on some of the guns. It's a PITA to go back and verify them all, but I think it will have to be done at some point I fear. There is no way we can incorporate importer data into that simple thread, it will be unmanageable in short order.
On the other hand, it makes zero sense to track prefix/suffix guns while at the same time maintaining the NON-/26\ Serial/Arsenal Data Collection Thread. Duplication of work is a surefire way to have errors crop up into the data.
I had started a spreadsheet for all the completed Chinese feature standards guns, it has a similar format to the Comprehensive Chinese SKS survey, but tons less data and looks like this:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/survey/chinese/data/Chinese_feature_standards.jpg)
I chose not to continue with it because it took a lot of time to enter all the data manually, even with quick pick boxes for common features. At some point, the plan was to simply use the survey to track a random interesting gun found on gunbroker or posted about the net that someone hadn't specifically run through the survey. I think for that to work, I need to pare down the survey to the bare essentials, something that will take 3 to 5 minutes to enter all the data we need. If I can do that, then everyone would have a simple link to a universal form where they could enter any gun at their heart's delight.
The new version of the survey would absolutely *require* photographs of the full S/N and all important features of the carbine. W/o photos, there is too much of a chance for a mistake to occur or the data to be grossly corrupted. I've gotten data entries with all letter S/Ns, people cursing me out on general entry lines, and feature sets that I know are impossible combinations (stamped gun that is marked as a MC-5D etc.). I don't know the answer, but I do know a bit or two about shirking away from work I don't particularly want to do! :P
I think it best to update the survey and then utilize the entries in a viewable and searchable database hosted on dropzone or google docs. That way everyone can see the data and can find whatever it is they might be looking for...the downside to this is that a ton of S/Ns along with importer info will be consolidated in one place on the net, ripe for unsavory types (maybe even three letter govt. agencies) to data mine and utilize for not-so-good reasons. I'll have to think on that... think1
QuoteI've gotten data entries with all letter S/Ns, people cursing me out on general entry lines
Oh I gotta see this!! rofl
I had one guy **** me out (lots of f-bombs) because one of the first questions was to enter the S/N of the rifle. Apparently was pissed that he couldn't continue the survey w/o entering something. Anyhow, about the fifth time I asked for a component S/N, he let loose. clap1
Quoteinfo will be consolidated in one place on the net, ripe for unsavory types (maybe even three letter govt. agencies) to data mine and utilize for not-so-good reasons.
Yeah....I'd hate to see a serial with 9 digits become a registered voter and vote for ........ the other side chuckles1
It could happen :)
Quote from: running-man on September 07, 2016, 10:56:42 PM
I had one guy **** me out (lots of f-bombs) because one of the first questions was to enter the S/N of the rifle. Apparently was pissed that he couldn't continue the survey w/o entering something. Anyhow, about the fifth time I asked for a component S/N, he let loose. clap1
What, you couldn't include me or.....Jimmy.... that kinda smut is right up my, I mean, his alley thumb1
Did you tell him to kindly go intercourse himself? rofl
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 07, 2016, 11:17:07 PM
Did you tell him to kindly go intercourse himself? rofl
You mean, Bless his heart, and ever so kindly go intercourse himself thumb1
Perhaps.... Tell him he was #1 with both hands?
Just tell the next one that his serial numbers are required for future tracking and surveillance monitoring. thumb1
Quote from: running-man on September 07, 2016, 10:56:42 PM
I had one guy **** me out (lots of f-bombs) because one of the first questions was to enter the S/N of the rifle. Apparently was pissed that he couldn't continue the survey w/o entering something. Anyhow, about the fifth time I asked for a component S/N, he let loose. clap1
Wait, what the heck, we don't have a tin foil hat emoji?! :o I can't respond appropriately to this post without one chuckles1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 07, 2016, 11:24:00 PM
Just tell the next one that his serial numbers are required for future tracking and surveillance monitoring. thumb1
And ............to find out how many SKSs are in the US thumb1
That was bad... rofl2 Forgive me :)
You could always use the Tom Cruise response from Tropic Thunder, when he was on the phone with the drug traffickers, "Take a step back...AND %#@& YOUR OWN FACE!" rofl
Before this thread descends into the bowels of Hades, I take it that RM's suggestion is to expand the current Chinese survey to include whether the sample rifle has a prefix or suffix.
This makes sense and would result in less time being used to redo data that is already in place...just have to add to what is already there. I would be happy to help with this if it is decided this is the way to progress. I feel there may be some important distinction the suffix alludes to especially after seeing both a suffix rifle and a non-suffix rifle that were manufactured at the same factory and imported by the same group and distributor. Is the fact that both of these examples are "DP" rifles significant? Was one accurized and the other not? Was one slated for export to a special military unit and the other not? These are question I'd like to see this data pull answer.
With regard to posting the complete SNs, would it be possible to blank out a portion of the SNs if the data is posted on a public hosting site? That way those who are compiling data have the information that is needed, but everyday Joe and the alphabet agencies have limited access.
Hades!?.. nailbite1
In a nutshell yes, I believe thats what RM is saying.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on September 08, 2016, 08:26:16 AM
Hades!?.. nailbite1
Well, as a lady, I really couldn't type what I was thinking.... bat1 rofl
Ok....I'm gonna do my usual, go outside the box for a bit.. :)
There is a high chance duplicate serials across models exist. Many rifles that don't possibly have their own serials assigned by the importers.
Russia started using Cyrillic prefixes in 1938 on Mosins for example, and I'm sure if one looks, the SVT, AVT and the PPSH, but, here is a list of random Mosin serials. They used the same prefixes as the SKS. Now without photos its hard to get excited, but I bet there are duplicates Mosin and SKS serial numbers.
(SKS/Mosin prefix comparison info done by RM) thumb1
HЯ 12** None recorded.
ив21** 1954, 3 examples: 1455, 3044, & 8195.
пу80** None recorded.
сц25** None recorded, ц not used in SKS S/N's (as far as I've seen anyhow).
СЗ50** None recorded.
КЛ28** 1951, 1 example: 3802. 1953 3 examples: 2665, 5425, & 5609.
АЛ54** 1954, 2 examples: 5071 & 6081.
УК15** 1957, 2 examples: 3873 & 5884.
ЗЕ39** 1954, 10 examples: 938, 939, 2830, 3982, 4682, 4821, 5004, 6683, 7630, & 8189.
УЯ5** None recorded.
ЖН95** 1949, 1 example: 1586.
OH75** None recorded.
KH28** 1954, 1 example: 8703
Romania would have been another nation with duplicate serials
"Known" prefixes used on Mosin M44s made in Romania, several duplicate the SKS prefixes.
1953 - AX, CP
1954 - AL, CP, BD, BH, BZ, DX, ET, FS, GR, GV, HU, KM, MD, RF, SK, TV, UZ, VZ
1955 - AB, AC, AL, BC, BE, BF, CA, CD, DF, EC, LE, MC, TV, YA, YE, ZX
Carry over prefix sets from year to year:
CP - 1953, 1954
TV - 1954, 1955
My Romanian '55 Mosin and '58 SKS share the same prefix, in the Romanian serial chart, there are SKSs numbered above and below this Mosin. I bet if one searches really hard, the SKS with serial CD1378 could or might appear, either way, I'm 99.9% sure it's out there. Romania followed the same format on their TT33 Tokarevs and I believe Aks, and Hungary used this same format on their Mosins.
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Romanian%20sks/58%20Romanian/SAM_1409_zps5e2abc9f.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Romanian%20sks/58%20Romanian/SAM_1409_zps5e2abc9f.jpg.html)
(http://i1016.photobucket.com/albums/af283/C13mechanic/Romanian%20sks/Romanian%20Mosin/SAM_1519_zps81b0ea5c.jpg) (http://s1016.photobucket.com/user/C13mechanic/media/Romanian%20sks/Romanian%20Mosin/SAM_1519_zps81b0ea5c.jpg.html)
Cause you can't tell me duplicate serials don't exist, 10yrs of Mosin production and 6/7of SKS production in Russia using 2 different factories for production, reusing the same serial prefixes, and then Romania reusing prefixes, there are duplicate serials out there.
QuoteQuote from: 27 CFR §478.92
How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
So if you have several batches imported and they arrive at different times, as long as none of the serials in a particular batch match, your good.
Example:
There is an SKS in your first batch with serial AB1234, you import stamped and sold it, 4 batches and a year later a Mosin shows up with serial AB1234, totally different batch than the first and no conflicting serial in or with this particular batch, you could import stamp it and sell it, thats what I take it as.
A big importer in the 80's this would have been a daunting task, the more you import the larger your serial database is, in the early days pre-PC that would have been paper logs a foot or feet thick of numbers you couldn't duplicate.
Which begs the question why would China or Chinese exporter/importers been the only ones to do it? Was the prefix a Chinese thing, importer thing, contract type marking or ATF import thing? I could see Chinese exporters doing it...they knew exactly what the stipulations/laws were to shove crap across the border, they had the capability to refinish, why not pop a letter stamp to lessen the risk of a duplicate, stay under the radar, increasing the likely hood of a sale.
I believe, though without any proof at this time, that the Soviet bloc prefixes are used as you state--an effort to minimize the duplication of serial numbers across and entire production run. However, I also feel the Chinese SKSs that have a suffix attached to the serial number are doing so for some other reason.
Apples and oranges--we probably should not assign Russian methodology to Chinese production; there is simply too little information known about the Chinese manufacturing/export process to make those types of assumptions.
Take the 2 DP rifles mentioned in this thread: mine, which has 21 million SN, is suffixed with a JH while the other has a 22 million SN without a suffix. Both were manufactured at the same factory, imported by the same firm, and very likely at the same time (could even have been the same batch). Why does 1 DP rifle have a suffix and the other not??
Quote from: Greasemonkey on September 08, 2016, 01:00:03 PM
QuoteQuote from: 27 CFR §478.92
How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
So if you have several batches imported and they arrive at different times, as long as none of the serials in a particular batch match, your good.
I don't think that's the case, there is no mention of batches anywhere (Batches? We ain't got no batches. We don't need no batches. I don't have to show you any stinkin' batches!).
I take it to read that all firearms made or imported by XYZ company have to have unique S/Ns. This applies regardless of when they were imported, regardless of country of manufacture, and regardless of make or model.
ATF released clarifying rulings on Cyrillic/Greek/Non-standard characters in 2002 and then reclarified in 2013 that importers can reuse S/N's that were originally on there provided they are in compliance with the marking regs:
No Cyrillic allowed: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2002-6-identification-firearms-armor-piercing-ammunition-and-large-capacity/download
Reuse original S/N's: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2013-3-adopting-identification-firearms/download
Note #2 &3 in the second ruling:
Quote2. The serial number adopted must have been marked in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102, including that it must not duplicate any serial number adopted or placed by the manufacturer, importer, or maker on any other firearm;
3. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must not remove, obliterate, or alter the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number to be adopted, except that, within 15 days of the date of release from Customs custody, a licensed importer must add letters, numbers, or a hyphen (as described in paragraph 4) to a foreign manufacturer’s serial number if the importer receives two or more firearms with the same serial number;
Obviously Chinese arms imported in the 80's did not follow these ATF regs, but the similarities are very interesting...
Quote from: montigre on September 08, 2016, 01:45:31 PM
I believe, though without any proof at this time, that the Soviet bloc prefixes are used as you state--an effort to minimize the duplication of serial numbers across and entire production run. However, I also feel the Chinese SKSs that have a suffix attached to the serial number are doing so for some other reason.
Apples and oranges--we probably should not assign Russian methodology to Chinese production; there is simply too little information known about the Chinese manufacturing/export process to make those types of assumptions.
Take the 2 DP rifles mentioned in this thread: mine, which has 21 million SN, is suffixed with a JH while the other has a 22 million SN without a suffix. Both were manufactured at the same factory, imported by the same firm, and very likely at the same time (could even have been the same batch). Why does 1 DP rifle have a suffix and the other not??
Apples and oranges... is it really, who more or less taught the Chinese? Sometimes the easiest explanation is the best, there could be some form of a Russian system in the whole mess. It's not a system one needs an Enigma machine to decipher, over complicating won't make it any easier.. Sometimes you have to look at the big picture, or to understand the student, you have to analyse the teacher.
Like I said It's out of the box of normal thinking, sometimes to get where you wanna go, thats what it takes.....all these nations have and pretty much share a pattern, the thing is finding the key to a particular pattern, find the key...and git-r-done. thumb1
QuoteTake the 2 DP rifles mentioned in this thread: mine, which has 21 million SN, is suffixed with a JH while the other has a 22 million SN without a suffix. Both were manufactured at the same factory, imported by the same firm, and very likely at the same time (could even have been the same batch). Why does 1 DP rifle have a suffix and the other not??
Simplest answer, it was ment to, maybe a different exporter, handler.. you have numerous could be's, and if's, very likelys in there.... nothing is concrete
I just was thinking the duplicate serial idea has a little less merit with the DP and DB's having two letters. Adding one letter opens up 26 possible single duplicate guns...if they were only doing it for that...which I highly doubt. But adding a single letter increases that amount exponentially for each digit in the serial. Adding two letters, while virtually guaranteeing never running into problems seems like overkill....you gotta remember, if this was being done by the importer, these things would have been coated in Cosmoline...what a crummy job that must have been already. :)
It gives a little more inclination for me to believe that these were added for some reason by the Chinese, after they were serial stamped, for some reason that is escaping us. Perhaps rather than proof marks, the Chinese used rejection marks, and possibly each letter signified something wrong that needed to be addressed before it made it out of the factory? With a lot of the DP and DB examples being somewhat low quality compared to others seemingly made at the same time. They may have had a less experienced crew, or older machining to work with...requiring a more stringent acceptance process, or yielding firearms that simply needed extra care in getting out the door with the expected quality.
Just a thought...I know all the DP and DB's aren't as rough as the ones I have seen, but it does make some sense to my specualtive mind.
Lets look at what they could be if marked by China...
Some are again...outside the box :)
Inspector marks, maybe exporter QA, Britain had a proof house for their miltary exports, a quality mark, low quality, fair to middlin or high, exceeds quality
As said a duplicate serial suffix
Exporter stamps, mayby to signify who knows, end of a particular lot, beginning of a particular lot, even a test lot, or these xx marked rifles go to a certain importer state side
Maybe a manufacture mark, a change in production, something little and inconspicuous, metal change, machining method, or small parts supply factory change
A contract built rifle for who knows or they were accecpted by some form of Chinese agency, like Security Forces marked rifles
Maybe rejection marks, some part just a hair out of spec per their military, but suitable for use as commercial export weapon.
Maybe overruns, too many or excess parts built for a given time, the finished parts sent to another factory for complete assembly, a hybrid build of parts from two or more different factories
Built from parts collected from smaller factories that had ceased production or from factories that went to total Ak production after a given time
A weapon that was made, failed the final inspection, and sent for corrective action, repair
Chinas method of a refurb stamp or inspection stamp after x years in storage or light use depending on the users assignment.
And on and on. Dozens of possibilities.
Quote from: running-man on September 08, 2016, 01:57:57 PM
Quote from: Greasemonkey on September 08, 2016, 01:00:03 PM
QuoteQuote from: 27 CFR §478.92
How must licensed manufacturers and licensed importers identify firearms, armor piercing ammunition, and large capacity ammunition feeding devices?
(a)(1) Firearms. You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows:
So if you have several batches imported and they arrive at different times, as long as none of the serials in a particular batch match, your good.
I don't think that's the case, there is no mention of batches anywhere (Batches? We ain't got no batches. We don't need no batches. I don't have to show you any stinkin' batches!).
I take it to read that all firearms made or imported by XYZ company have to have unique S/Ns. This applies regardless of when they were imported, regardless of country of manufacture, and regardless of make or model.
ATF released clarifying rulings on Cyrillic/Greek/Non-standard characters in 2002 and then reclarified in 2013 that importers can reuse S/N's that were originally on there provided they are in compliance with the marking regs:
No Cyrillic allowed: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2002-6-identification-firearms-armor-piercing-ammunition-and-large-capacity/download
Reuse original S/N's: https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/ruling/2013-3-adopting-identification-firearms/download
Note #2 &3 in the second ruling: Quote2. The serial number adopted must have been marked in accordance with 27 CFR 478.92 and 479.102, including that it must not duplicate any serial number adopted or placed by the manufacturer, importer, or maker on any other firearm;
3. The manufacturer, importer, or maker must not remove, obliterate, or alter the importer’s or manufacturer’s serial number to be adopted, except that, within 15 days of the date of release from Customs custody, a licensed importer must add letters, numbers, or a hyphen (as described in paragraph 4) to a foreign manufacturer’s serial number if the importer receives two or more firearms with the same serial number;
Obviously Chinese arms imported in the 80's did not follow these ATF regs, but the similarities are very interesting...
Ok, then why does one not see importer applied serials on Romanian M44s and Model 56s, they were imported in your slated timeframe of XYZ manufactures cant use the same serial numbers, when there is a chance there are duplicates. They however are unique to that series of weapon.
And if China shunned from importation by 1994, later reg. would not have a bearing..all of the hundreds of thousands of imported military surplus, I bet there are many duplicates spread across thousands of weapons. There may be a M14, a NDM-86, an pre ban Ak, even a Mak-90, a .22lr bolt action or shotgun that are Chinese made that even shares a serial with an SKS. My Norinco JW-15 22lr has a 9.4 million serial(even though 94 is the year, it is part of the serial) which could plant it firmly in Syrian SKS number territory. I don't think serial duplication was an overly big concern for the Chinese.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on September 08, 2016, 04:32:18 PM
Ok, then why does one not see importer applied serials on Romanian M44s and Model 56s, they were imported in your slated timeframe of XYZ manufactures cant use the same serial numbers, when there is a chance there are duplicates. They however are unique to that series of weapon.
And if China shunned from importation by 1994, later reg. would not have a bearing..all of the hundreds of thousands of imported military surplus, I bet there are many duplicates spread across thousands of weapons. There may be a M14, a NDM-86, an pre ban Ak, even a Mak-90, a .22lr bolt action or shotgun that are Chinese made that even shares a serial with an SKS. My Norinco JW-15 22lr has a 9.4 million serial(even though 94 is the year, it is part of the serial) which could plant it firmly in Syrian SKS number territory. I don't think serial duplication was an overly big concern for the Chinese.
You'll have to ask CAI/IO/TGI that first question. There doesn't seem to be a rhyme or reason as to why they do things one way, and then in the next import batch do things totally differently. The Russian sneaks are a prime example. Per the guidance above, 2002 is the definitive date BATF said something to the effect of NO CYRILLIC in the S/N and yet when 2013 comes and the Sino-Banians are rolling in, they (IO) import a few thousand Russian sneaks and you get crap like this:
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/unknown/249_receiver.jpg)
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Russian/unknown/249_import_stamp.jpg)
What's the official S/N? I would have loved to have been in that bonded warehouse listening to the guys trying to decide what the S/N of these would have been. "Uh Cletus, let's just call this one or249!"
Just because BATF said this is how it should be done, doesn't mean that's the way it was done. Exceptions to every rule it seems. I get the whole Chinese importing up to '94 before the ruling was in place, but I also think that BATF only issues rulings like these when there is confusion and people are going too far off the path for comfort - the law remains unchanged. It could easily be that in the 80's and early 90's, importers generally did a good job with their duplicate S/N's and then something changed and BATF had to straighten things out a bit with a new ruling. dntknw1
None of this proves a thing unfortunately. It only lays out what should be there and why. It could easily be any one of the things you mentioned in your previous post. Heck, they could have been stamped by the factory, export company, Chinese govt. official, importer, wholesaler, or retailer for that matter. We just need to roll up the sleeves and get the lists compiled. Some kind of pattern will present itself and we'll be able to form some kind of hypothesis based on the evidence. thumb1
Quote from: running-man on September 08, 2016, 05:08:33 PM
None of this proves a thing unfortunately. It only lays out what should be there and why. It could easily be any one of the things you mentioned in your previous post. Heck, they could have been stamped by the factory, export company, Chinese govt. official, importer, wholesaler, or retailer for that matter. We just need to roll up the sleeves and get the lists compiled. Some kind of pattern will present itself and we'll be able to form some kind of hypothesis based on the evidence. thumb1
Agreed, let's do this. thumb1 dance2
This might be a time when the Canadians could chime in. There is/was some importation of Chinese SKSs, do any of theirs exhibit any of these prefix/suffix letters? Granted it wasn't the amount we got in, but surely some of them must have, unless it was done here.
Quote from: Justin Hell on September 08, 2016, 06:20:35 PM
This might be a time when the Canadians could chime in. There is/was some importation of Chinese SKSs, do any of theirs exhibit any of these prefix/suffix letters? Granted it wasn't the amount we got in, but surely some of them must have, unless it was done here.
Not that I've seen. Seems to be a US thing as the only guns I've come across with letters tagged onto the end of serial numbers also have US import stamps on them
Ran into these two while updating the non /26\ S/N thread.
S/N 2-1805355(G):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T5_0406/2-1805355_receiver.jpg)
S/N 2-1805357(G):
(http://i1352.photobucket.com/albums/q647/jelucer/Chinese/T5_0406/2-1805357_receiver_close.jpg)
Unfortunately, that's as far as I can go with these two. I see a very, very blurry import stamp on the second one and don't have any idea on the first as that is the only photo I have. The G's are clearly the same font though and in the same general location (after the /?5\ mark). Doesn't prove anything really, but the fact that these S/N's are only 2 apart is an interesting sign. It may mean:
- The guns were stamped with the G immediately after manufacture. I think this is unlikely as other 2-1805xxx guns exist that do *not* sport this single G after the ?/5\, but we can't discount it completely.
- The guns were stamped with the G in the depot at issuance by the Chinese. Would be akin to rack numbers added to a stock, though why they would do this, I have no idea. Still it's a possibility.
- The guns were stamped with the G immediately prior to export. Possible, if the guns were both part of the same export batch and had been kept together throughout issuance. I still think this most likely, but I would need clear import stamp evidence to know for certain.
- The guns were stamped with the G immediately after import during the 15 day grace period to record all information according to ATF regs. I'm not 100% certain of the legal technicalities of this one. I think the ATF rule against altering and obliterating a S/N applies after the 15 day grace period from release of US customs custody is up, they are officially recorded in a bound book, and any updated ATF form 6A changes are made. I think less likely than the export stamp hypothesis, but we could discount this one 100% if we found two guns with the same prefix/suffix with unaffiliated import stamps. (for example, a CAI gun and an IO gun, they have no relations with each other and use completely separate marking methods and import logistics.)
I think with more data we might be able to put this one to bed soon...
The "G" fonts look different to me. The 2nd example seems more squared at the corners and slightly more elongated than the 1st. I cannot tell if the arsenal stamps are the same. Curiouser and couriouser.....
I can tell you that the majority of the 0406b guns were poly usa imports, if that helps at all. And most of them have a suffix letter.
Quote from: montigre on September 25, 2016, 03:17:58 PM
The "G" fonts look different to me. The 2nd example seems more squared at the corners and slightly more elongated than the 1st. I cannot tell if the arsenal stamps are the same. Curiouser and couriouser.....
I can tell you that the arsenal stamps are both the same. /?5\'s are unique out of all Chinese Type 56's in this S/N format.
As for the G's, when I posted these on my desktop they looked identical. On my phone with max zoom, I can see a slight difference in the length of the tail at the upper right. This could be the same stamp at different strike angles or they could be different stamps altogether.
Quote from: Power Surge on September 25, 2016, 03:31:25 PM
I can tell you that the majority of the 0406b guns were poly usa imports, if that helps at all. And most of them have a suffix letter.
What the heck is an '0406bee' thingy? :-X
dead2