Something I've never seen before, what appears to be a blem from the factory in the metal on a top cover. Bluing appears to be fluid and continuous - no signs of a touch up, unless the entire cover was redone, and the cover matches the rest of the rifle. Maybe this one was a Chinese arsenal refurb,?
(https://image.ibb.co/jOKmZQ/SKS_Cover_Blem.jpg)
I see what looks like a tiny dimple (dent). :o
Did you get a discount?
Quote from: Stoned_Oli on September 16, 2017, 10:49:42 AM
Did you get a discount?
LOL - no! Rifle wasn't priced too bad, just had that weird blemish. Looks more like a spot that was possibly ground or, even more so if pressed, had some FOD in the die, and they just went ahead and blued it. Metal is way too thick there to dent without it having been used as a hammer, and it looks like it would have been done at the factory, or missed at refurb.
This one might end up being a "clean up and sell" model, anyway. We'll see.
I don't believe that's a factory blemish. While some of the 70s produced guns had less than spectacular build quality, the action related parts were still always made with high standards. There would be no reason for that part to pass quality control, they would have just grabbed another cover.
What is this gun? Year? Do you have an overall pic?
Is the two-tone, top-cover bluing stripe still visible?
I'd say it's most likely post production and then reblued or possibly perma-blued.
No idea.... doubt it would effect the rifles function. :)
Quote from: Boris Badinov on September 17, 2017, 06:56:54 PM
Is the two-tone, top-cover bluing stripe still visible?
I'd say it's most likely post production and then reblued or possibly perma-blued.
I don't believe the Chinese rifles had that stripe; I don't recall it on any of my others. I know my Russians do.
There is no evidence at all of it being touched up, and the bluing matches the rest of the rifle, so it's odd.
Quote from: Power Surge on September 17, 2017, 06:11:43 PM
What is this gun? Year? Do you have an overall pic?
I'll have to get an overall pic later, but it's an 0140 Public Security rifle. My guess is that it may have been refurbed, and maybe that's how the cover has the nice bluing on it.
Quote from: cztulsa on September 18, 2017, 09:34:50 AM
I don't believe the Chinese rifles had that stripe; I don't recall it on any of my others. I know my Russians do.
There is no evidence at all of it being touched up, and the bluing matches the rest of the rifle, so it's odd.
The stripe is standard on all of the variants.
The only rifle I own that doesn't have the stripe is a Romanian refurb which I'm 99% certain has been perma-blued.
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?638042-Cugir-Hunting-A-Romanian-Beauty-1960
Everyone one of mine regardless of maker has the stripe(with one exception).. some are pretty faint, some very pronounced. The Chinese, the commercial ones seem less pronounced than the military ones. The one exception, the refurb Russians.. I don't know or care whats under the BBQ paint.
And if one goes looking....you can find TT-33 Toks that have the same type color banding on the slide.
I'll have to have a look at a couple of mine when I get home; I guess I don't remember the Chinese having it.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on September 18, 2017, 10:16:41 AM
Quote from: cztulsa on September 18, 2017, 09:34:50 AM
I don't believe the Chinese rifles had that stripe; I don't recall it on any of my others. I know my Russians do.
There is no evidence at all of it being touched up, and the bluing matches the rest of the rifle, so it's odd.
The stripe is standard on all of the variants.
Boris is spot on with this one. Sometimes it takes the right light, but they can usually be found.
[0138]:
(http://preview.ibb.co/gjhDZQ/7503526_receiver_cover_top.jpg) (http://ibb.co/eRYbok)
/816\:
(http://image.ibb.co/fo9tZQ/1800036_receiver_cover_top.jpg) (http://ibb.co/dFYLEQ)
Rare TO series gun:
(http://image.ibb.co/hvm7uQ/TO3315_receiver_cover_top.jpg) (http://ibb.co/jU5NTk)
Soviet Sino:
(http://preview.ibb.co/i6kNTk/1239_receiver_cover_top.jpg) (http://ibb.co/npWJ15)
/216\:
(http://image.ibb.co/fHmU8k/1707774_receiver_cover.jpg) (http://ibb.co/ejBwok)
/306\:
(http://image.ibb.co/j250EQ/1723992_receiver_cover_top.jpg) (http://ibb.co/gTmkg5)
I think the blemish was done while this thing was in service and some subsequent refurb reblued it prior to import. Might not be the prettiest receiver cover, but if it matches and functions fine, I'd say you;'re good to go! thumb1
Here are some close up HD photos of the cover on the Romy I linked above. It's the only non-bbq cover i've seen without a visible stripe. From a foot away you'd swear it was blued...up close however...
In the vertical pic you can see evidence of some very light, even pitting. But no stripe. Pretty obvious that it was covered up with permablue. Other than the cover, it's nearly impossible to tell the rifle is permablued... but it is. At least parts of it are.
(http://preview.ibb.co/jeBM4Q/20170918_162719.jpg) (http://ibb.co/e98er5)
(http://preview.ibb.co/bBa9r5/20170918_162708.jpg) (http://ibb.co/bv9DJk)
imagehost ru (http://imgbb.com/)
(http://preview.ibb.co/eZqaW5/20170918_162431.jpg) (http://ibb.co/nudUr5)
RM--
What is the rare TO series gun? Is that a serial prefix?
Yeah, they are cool guns with very unusual S/Ns. I'll put up a post with it one of these days. Only ever seen the one I have documented in the wild, Howie has a couple noted in his lists (though those could be Russians too as it's impossible to verify his records)
Consider my memory jogged; pulled a Chinese paratrooper out of the closet (it's the easiest to get to), and it has the stripe. Either it's been a while since I've messed with one (been exposed to mostly Russians lately), or I just never paid any attention. At any rate, I see no stripe on this new acquisition, so it's likely a re-blue. They did a great job, as it all matches up perfectly. Oh well, it's really not a hideous rifle all in all, the dent/depression in the cover is the only real issue - hope it's not a killer. This one will likely get cleaned up and moved, as I need to gin up some cash for the big Tulsa show in a couple of months. Thanks guys.
Quote from: cztulsa on September 18, 2017, 06:38:59 PM
At any rate, I see no stripe on this new acquisition, so it's likely a re-blue. They did a great job, as it all matches up perfectly.
IIRC, the stripe still shows up after rebluing. There must be some part of the processes involved in making the covers that makes the strip unavoidable. I've heard it explained as related to an annealing process that softens the metal up for stamping. But that explanation falls short IMO because none of the other variants (aside from USSR and NK) stamped the covers.
My guess is that the stripe is related to the process of shaping the covers-- involving intense heat some kind of mechanized anvil stamping that shapes, stretches, and turns the steel covers from shorter, mostly formless blanks. The stripe resulting from the addition of some type of gas that prevents the steel from cracking under the shaping process. Similar to the shaping and hardening process involved in the making of the katana swords-- which also have odd striping patterns.
...pardon my rambling
QuoteMy guess is that the stripe is related to the process of shaping the covers
I have often wondered what the stripe was, i assumed 50 years of storage was somehow to blame and that discolored bit was where the crate held them and something leached into/out of the finish.
But its apparently deeper than that.
Right... The crates do not even cradle them at this location. thumb1
However the best explanation I've heard so far for the stripe: Aliens.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on September 18, 2017, 09:49:20 PM
However the best explanation I've heard so far for the stripe: Aliens.
Ball lightning
https://youtu.be/33Pa0L6ZKFA
I may or may have have made this. rofl
Quote from: Boris Badinov on September 18, 2017, 09:49:20 PM
However the best explanation I've heard so far for the stripe: Aliens.
It was their early work, pre crop circles
Quote from: Boris Badinov on September 18, 2017, 07:06:37 PM
Quote from: cztulsa on September 18, 2017, 06:38:59 PM
At any rate, I see no stripe on this new acquisition, so it's likely a re-blue. They did a great job, as it all matches up perfectly.
IIRC, the stripe still shows up after rebluing. There must be some part of the processes involved in making the covers that makes the strip unavoidable. I've heard it explained as related to an annealing process that softens the metal up for stamping. But that explanation falls short IMO because none of the other variants (aside from USSR and NK) stamped the covers.
My guess is that the stripe is related to the process of shaping the covers-- involving intense heat some kind of mechanized anvil stamping that shapes, stretches, and turns the steel covers from shorter, mostly formless blanks. The stripe resulting from the addition of some type of gas that prevents the steel from cracking under the shaping process. Similar to the shaping and hardening process involved in the making of the katana swords-- which also have odd striping patterns.
...pardon my rambling
Is it too far of a stretch to think these Chinese Dust Covers/Receiver Covers were originally Russian unmarked parts that were left over from the Soviet-Sino startup days? The Chinese had all sorts of Russian parts. Maybe they just went ahead and used them, and Serial Numbered them in the Chinese marking way? Just throwing out a thought here...
I don't know of any structural advantage that the annealling process would have made the Cover stronger in tensile strength, or more flexible. If there were advantages, other than softer metal for stampings, they may have made them thmselves to use. We may never know for absolute. But guessing always stirs debate. And debate usually hammers out a best guess answer. Until Uncle China wants to tell all they're secrets... firstchoice
Quote from: firstchoice on September 19, 2017, 01:27:05 AM
[
Is it too far of a stretch to think these Chinese Dust Covers/Receiver Covers were originally Russian unmarked parts that were left over from the Soviet-Sino startup days?
firstchoice
It is a bit of a stretch.
China produced a steady average of 250-300k Type56 carbines for 25-30 years. And the stripe was standard for the entirety of Chinese production. It's highly improbable that the Soviets produced that many extra dust covers. Not to mention the continuity of the stripe on the Romy, Yugo, NK, Albanian, and NVA guns.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on September 19, 2017, 02:23:23 AM
It is a bit of a stretch.
China produced a steady average of 250-300k Type56 carbines for 25-30 years. And the stripe was standard for the entirety of Chinese production. It's highly improbable that the Soviets produced that many extra dust covers. Not to mention the continuity of the stripe on the Romy, Yugo, NK, Albanian, and NVA guns.
Before one goes and makes a blanket statement of "the entirety of Chinese production".. Consider my SKS NR does not have the stripe.. These would be very late in Chinese SKS production. There is no discernible center stripe on the bottom or the top side of the cover... As far as I can tell, the NR cover is not reblued and it is the original cover. Just as a random thought, what other late commercial models do not have it?
It's only a blanket statement out of context.
"The stripe WAS the standard for the entirety of Chinese production." Just as it was for every other national variant. The standard is not nullified because of a handful of apparent deviations from the standard.
To narrow the focus of my statement, though, I specifically referred to the first 25-30years of Type56 production-- the Type56 designation having been abandoned in 1984.
But my best estimation would be that the Commercial mods and variants followed suit-- as the stripe persisted on military production rifles for 40 years -- 1949-1989.
IMO it can be safely asserted that the stripe was not added as an aesthetic afterthought-- so it has to be the direct result of a specific step in the the top-cover manufacturing process.
If a given rifle doesn't have the stripe, then that rifle is an exception to the norm. And just as with the Romy I posted above-- such a rifle a likely candidate for post production paint or re-blue or perma-blue.
I am in no way attempting to start a fire here. This specific issue of the stripe is something I have spent way too much time considering--- way too much time.
But the standard persists. The exceptions beg further examination of their deviation from the standard-- not vice versa.
From the one picture that cztulsa provided, I'm not entirely convinced that the cover is re-blued-- as the overall hue and texture bear a strong resemblance to perma-blue or similar process.
I'm not trying to argue :) it's just some covers do not display a stripe, or.....possibly were not part of/missed out on the process.. to say every cover by every military got the same treatment is a stretch IMO.. and since we are discussing it.... here are some exceptions to the norm.. :)
I can't lay my hand on the good book and say "every cover got the treatment.." This is an old photo from a previous discussion.... elsewhere... note the far left cover. That is a Yugo, no stripe, nary a hint of one on either side. It's not a refurb, cover number matches the rifle, and I dug it straight out of a box from Numrich way, way back in the day.
The one on the far right is a '78 Albanian.. in person you need really good bright light to make out the stripe. Even on the bottom side, it's almost non existent.. another out the box from the importer, cover number also matches the rifle.. so I can in good faith say.... no alterations were done to either.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/0gkltrvjn0v7fx6/SAM_0476_zpsf3479679.jpg?dl=0)
So there are two other examples from two other separate nations that the stripe is either so faint or inconspicuous it practically does not exist. I still question whether or not that Yugoslavian has a stripe, or if it was even done.
QuoteThis specific issue of the stripe is something I have spent way too much time considering--- way too much time.
Well thanks a bunch, i hadnt spent anytime thinking about it before and now i cant stop wondering what it is. cry1
This is a good discussion. It's definitely something that has been speculated many times over in the last ten or twenty years. Unfortunately, in my mind, speculation like this dredges up memories of 1956+millions=year. :(
To move past that, I think we would need to start experimenting on a pair of covers. It would be destructive testing unfortunately, but it would at least begin to eliminate some of the more far fetched guesses ("It's from how they are stored in the crates!").
Some ideas that come to mind with both a striped and non-striped cover:
- Test the bluing under a mass spec and see if the stripe and non stripe areas are fundamentally different in some way. (Not 100% certain this is possible on a thin layer of finish.)
- Strip the bluing and see if there is any discontinuity in the base metal under the finish.
- Perform hardness testing in numerous places to see if the heat treatment is consistent across the entire cover.
- Run it under a mass spec to see if the base metal changes across the entire cover.
- Slice the cover longitudinally and then grind the cut and acid etch to see the grain structure. This might show flow lines from the forging process.
Thoughts?
:o now I am going to have to check mine out, don't know if they have those stripes or not. never gave any thought. pullhair1
Quote from: running-man on September 19, 2017, 11:38:43 PM
This is a good discussion. It's definitely something that has been speculated many times over in the last ten or twenty years. Unfortunately, in my mind, speculation like this dredges up memories of 1956+millions=year. :(
To move past that, I think we would need to start experimenting on a pair of covers. It would be destructive testing unfortunately, but it would at least begin to eliminate some of the more far fetched guesses ("It's from how they are stored in the crates!").
Some ideas that come to mind with both a striped and non-striped cover:
- Test the bluing under a mass spec and see if the stripe and non stripe areas are fundamentally different in some way. (Not 100% certain this is possible on a thin layer of finish.)
- Strip the bluing and see if there is any discontinuity in the base metal under the finish.
- Perform hardness testing in numerous places to see if the heat treatment is consistent across the entire cover.
- Run it under a mass spec to see if the base metal changes across the entire cover.
- Slice the cover longitudinally and then grind the cut and acid etch to see the grain structure. This might show flow lines from the forging process.
Thoughts?
I think it's a great idea. I don't have any spare covers lying around. But I'm willing to contribute funds to get the process rolling-- as covers aren't free and the processes involve will likely involve time and experts (also not free).
Seems as if it might be worth the effort to seek the opinion of a metalurgist before anything. ?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on September 20, 2017, 10:40:57 AM
Seems as if it might be worth the effort to seek the opinion of a metalurgist before anything. ?
...meaning that a metalurgist might be able to explain the stripe without having to perform the destructive tests in the first place.
I thought the same thing, but there's no metallurgy schools within a days drive of me.
Are you able to do this RM?
A good portion of it. I have a colleague at the Air Force who is a metallurgist. I'll shoot her an email and see if she'd be receptive to helping us out. A machine shop I frequent will be able to hardness test anything we want them to (they owe me several favors). I also know a member who has daily access to a mass spec at his work that we might utilize. The $64,000 question is whether it's worth putting this kind of effort into getting an answer. :P
Quote from: running-man on September 21, 2017, 12:57:41 AM
The $64,000 question is whether it's worth putting this kind of effort into getting an answer. :P
Answer: Yes.
I'll take the $64,000 via PayPal or USPS Check. Large denomination cash payment also acceptable.
Oh boy.... destruction fart1 So.. do it fairly across the board.. check and verify each nation to see if they up held the original design, a '49 SKS cover should be the base line, since that is the earliest thats around.... See who used different metal mixtures or hardness levels.
So do one each of the big 5.... for giggles... you could chuck an NVA in there, but heck... it's just a Chinese chuckles1 and do a NK.. gotta see whats in that Jong-un junk that makes it so valuable, and maybe find out a Yugoslavian has a high chrome content, or if an early Chinese was forged in a rice patty furnace, maybe see if an EG cover is recycled K98s.. rofl2 rofl2
Do some off the shelf commercial ones too... cause they are soft and squishy as I found out a few years ago. chuckles1 rofl2 rofl
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/4wa98c37hkz4pvq/SAM_0464_zps2f264264.jpg?dl=0)
Quote from: Greasemonkey on September 21, 2017, 07:41:29 PM
Oh boy.... destruction fart1 So.. do it fairly across the board.. check and verify each nation to see if they up held the original design, a '49 SKS cover should be the base line, since that is the earliest thats around.... See who used different metal mixtures or hardness levels.
So do one each of the big 5.... for giggles... you could chuck an NVA in there, but heck... it's just a Chinese chuckles1 and do a NK.. gotta see whats in that Jong-un junk that makes it so valuable, and maybe find out a Yugoslavian has a high chrome content, or if an early Chinese was forged in a rice patty furnace, maybe see if an EG cover is recycled K98s.. rofl2 rofl2
Do some off the shelf commercial ones too... cause they are soft and squishy as I found out a few years ago. chuckles1 rofl2 rofl
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/4wa98c37hkz4pvq/SAM_0464_zps2f264264.jpg?dl=0)
:o
Dont look like no reciever cover to me!
My only issue with the selective heat treating theory, is the fact that there are pretty well defined lines between the different areas. Usually when you do selective heat treating, you see a much more faded transition between the two areas, as it would be very difficult to stop the transfer of heat dead in it's tracks at a specific point during the annealing process.
Chances are, if you take this to a metallurgist they will look at it and say, oh thats x,y,z because of a,b,c in the q,w,e, when they j,k,l 'd it.
And we will all be sad the mystery was so simple.
Think I have a yugo cover if you want it for testing... Lemme know.