Anyone have one of these? All original, all matching, and none of obvious attributes associated with refurbishment.
Apparently there are swarms of them north of the border, but so far no one who claims to own one or to have seen one has been willing to post anything of evidentiary value beyond verbal testimony.
If they exist, seems as if there should be a roughly equal percentage of them among the US shipments.
So, if anyone's got one, would you mind posting some detailed photos? I'm looking for a lot of detail, in order to verify all-original, all matching, and non-refurb attributes.
All serials - stamps and EPs
And HD close ups of the all surfaces of the barreled action and stock.
Thanks
Hi Boris, I have been reading posts on CGN. I took a look at my 57. It has a hardwood stock, all matching serial numbers ( EP on gas tube and piston rod) except for magazine. It does have a refurb mark on receiver cover and handguard is laminate. Stock has matching serial number. If you want I can take pictures later and post.
Quote from: jstin2 on February 16, 2019, 10:00:16 PM
Hi Boris, I have been reading posts on CGN. I took a look at my 57. It has a hardwood stock, all matching serial numbers ( EP on gas tube and piston rod) except for magazine. It does have a refurb mark on receiver cover and handguard is laminate. Stock has matching serial number. If you want I can take pictures later and post.
Hey, jstin2--
Thanks for reply. No need to post, though, as I'm specifically seeking carbines with ZERO indications of refurbishement.
No problem. My only question is why they would have put a hardwood stock on this carbine when they had laminate available?
Quote from: jstin2 on February 16, 2019, 10:25:35 PM
No problem. My only question is why they would have put a hardwood stock on this carbine when they had laminate available?
Hard to tell.
But since its been refurbished, it's impossible to say with any certainty what is original and what is not.
Msybe others have a different interpretation, but as I see it, the laminate handguard is a red flag for likely stock replacement.
Or it could be the other way. Original stock and handguard replacement.
Sure.
But the refurb indicators exclude such an example from use in making a determination either way.
Does the gas tube have indications of re-blue, paint, or a previous EP'd serial number?
There is this 1957 posted in the Letter Series Sticky and identified as non-refurb:
http://s1316.photobucket.com/user/toeknee221/media/IMG_6106_zps43d28198.jpg.html
But the photos are limited, and I have questions about the annealing stripe on the top cover, the photos of which suggest possible reblue:
http://i1316.photobucket.com/albums/t618/toeknee221/IMG_5949_zpsfe342d46.jpg
Also, no photos of the gas tube and piston EP serials.
There is no indication of re-blue, paint or a previous EP'd serial number. No problem punching out pin, put in new laminate handguard, replace pin and slap it back on carbine. Then mark the receiver cover- refurb.
Jstin2,
I take it back. Will you post photos of your rifle? No hurry.
Also, it's not a Molot gun is it?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 16, 2019, 08:36:05 PM
Anyone have one of these? All original, all matching, and none of obvious attributes associated with refurbishment.
Apparently there are swarms of them north of the border, but so far no one who claims to own one or to have seen one has been willing to post anything of evidentiary value beyond verbal testimony.
If they exist, seems as if there should be a roughly equal percentage of them among the US shipments.
So, if anyone's got one, would you mind posting some detailed photos? I'm looking for a lot of detail, in order to verify all-original, all matching, and non-refurb attributes.
All serials - stamps and EPs
And HD close ups of the all surfaces of the barreled action and stock.
Thanks
Why?
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 16, 2019, 11:39:42 PM
Why?
I think they do not exist. Others say that they do.
Because it is logically impossible to prove non-existence, maybe someone can prove existence by showing me one.
I've seen plenty of 57's and 58's in hardwood stocks, but without exception they have all exhibited at least one indication (usually many more) of refurbishment.
The only ones I've seen that show no attributes commonly associated with refurbishment have been in laminate stocks.
Which leads me to the conclusion that hardwood stocks on 1957 and 1958 carbines are non-original and laminate is the original standard.
I think i misunderstood your "why?", pcke2000.
If not in roughly equal percentages, than at least....some?
To date, the only post 56 that I've seen that has the looks of a convincing hardwood original is in the Letter Series sticky.
But I'd like to see more detailed photos of it. Especially the annealing strip on the top cover and the ep serials on the tube (and to a lesser extent the piston)
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 16, 2019, 11:51:48 PM
I think i misunderstood the your "why?", pcke2000.
If not in roughly equal percentages, than at least....some?
I am just purely curious if there would indeed be 'a roughly equal percentage of them among the US shipments', due to the time difference considering the peak import time in the US was much earlier.
One example, it seems like 1949 with the correct cruciform bayonet are much more rare in the US than in Canada. I personally do not know how many Russian SKS rifles were imported into the US and Canada respectively, however I feel the US got a lot (the number may be comparable to that of the imported to Canada ??)
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 17, 2019, 12:08:18 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 16, 2019, 11:51:48 PM
I think i misunderstood the your "why?", pcke2000.
If not in roughly equal percentages, than at least....some?
I am just purely curious if there would indeed be 'a roughly equal percentage of them among the US shipments', due to the time difference considering the peak import time in the US was much earlier.
One example, it seems like 1949 with the correct cruciform bayonet are much more rare in the US than in Canada. I personally do not know how many Russian SKS rifles were imported into the US and Canada respectively, however I feel the US got a lot (the number may be comparable to that of the imported to Canada ??)
Which is one of the reasons I asked for import numbers on CGN, and also asked for RM to crunch the data on US imports to get a conservative number. However, certain members of CGN would rather make it a ****show. A member there however has contacted me that has VERY extensive inside knowledge of the Russian import numbers, shipment dates, importers.... everything, and if you add it all up its around 45K units. I understand this may not include or take into account 'every' shipment or "batch", but nobody seems to be willing or are simply unable to fill any gapes they claim exists. Losts of grandstanding and hot air however.
Could it be that the older SKSs were simply further back in storage and didn't come out until later? The Canadians seem to have plenty of 50-51s too....seemingly higher than the US as well. At least with the parts resellers I have dealt with.
Just an observation, I haven't been keeping up with any stats.
I hope I am wrong, as it might indicate they have reached the back of the storage unit so to speak, since imports up there seem to be drying up.
I've been wondering if a lot of Russian guns in Canada may have gone into deep storage much, much later... and for very brief periods before export, or maybe not at all.
So many of the examples I've seen from the CA imports have various condition issues or signs of heavy, and possibly multiple refurbishments. Which could suggest they were in active issue service well past the Soviet collapse. All conjecture, of course, but overall batch condition has to indicate something.
So far I've found two hardwood 57's on CGN that owners claimed to be all original ...but they are both Molot guns. I've only scanned the first 35 pages in the Red Rifles forum though.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 17, 2019, 01:14:55 PM
I've been wondering if a lot of Russian guns in Canada may have into deep storage much, much later... for very brief periods before export, maybe not at all.
...but they are both Molot guns. .
When I was getting my Mosin fetish on.. alot of the Molot imported Mosin Nagants were quoted as coming out of the Ukraine.... not Russia. So they would have had to spend some time there in some kind of storage depot. It's possible, all these rifles being surplus, the SKSs were flowing from the same place.
Boris- took some pictures today. If you want more let me know.
https://ibb.co/album/cyz2Tv
Jstin,
When I extreme zoom the photo of the gas tube, there appears to be shadow script beneath the EP serial number-- kind of brownish in color and in the same dimensions of the EP script.
(https://i.ibb.co/Z2FbN7w/IMG-9213.jpg)
Can you see what I am referring to?
I think the tube has been refurbed and then had a new EP serial applied.
Btw, thanks for taking the time to photograph an post, jstin2.
Your daughter taught you well. thumb1
There is an old serial number there. B*66**
Thats not 'new old stock', thats 'used old stock'.
(https://i.ibb.co/pXqQJJJ/Untitled.png)
LC-- I didn't even see that one. thumb1
If you enlarge the photo I posted above, there appears to be a third shadow script. It's very faint, but it's basically layered beneath the AH serial and the B* serial you pointed out.
The script I'm seeing is brown/plum in color. Hard to see without enlarging. Might be more visible with filters.
These are exactly the kinds of details I think many miss (both up north and here at home) when making "all-original" and "non-refurb" claims.
I have made the same mistake. But, in US dollars, paid...well...a bit more upon the discovery.
Freakin nice azz rifle right there. thumb1
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 02:25:09 PM
Freakin nice azz rifle righ there. thumb1
Also, that.
Solid $500-600 gun in the US market.
Lemme guess, Jstin. You paid $299 CD?
I zoomed in to the 89 in the EP serial, then added a filter and adjusted the white balance. There is more to the script that I see, but zooming in may help to identify the rest of the shadow script in the original photo:
(https://i.ibb.co/JcJdfj9/Screenshot-20190217-143556-Photo-Editor.jpg) (https://ibb.co/grK75Zx)
(https://i.ibb.co/vXTMDRr/IMG-9213.jpg) (https://ibb.co/CPYSWDX)
Boris, I can find zero '58's with hardwood stocks that are not Canadian. The majority of Canadian ones I did find are Westrifle specials and as such, totally unsuitable for data collection purposes with their 'enhanced' stocks such as:
(https://i.ibb.co/YXJzwkj/O-3613-K-stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Qkh2tNm)
I do find several '57s that fit the bill, and from the import stamps of many I know they are not Canadian:
A really nice AK4496_И:
(https://i.ibb.co/mJk57tn/AK4496-crossbolt.jpg) (https://ibb.co/G7yQjkZ)
(https://i.ibb.co/CwNRLJ1/AK4496-receiver.jpg) (https://ibb.co/j8BntV6)
(https://i.ibb.co/R0MVFJs/AK4496-right-stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3N8L3Pj)
(https://i.ibb.co/qgf8vBB/AK4496-stock.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bvZVk11)
Here is BH4121_И:
(https://i.ibb.co/c1V89cP/BH4121-left-lug.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7XLpDJH)
(https://i.ibb.co/WpJ8rqw/BH4121-receiver.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dJYCN1q)
(https://i.ibb.co/txC6Qqd/BH4121-right-lug.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hZ8NLBq)
And a clearly CAI imported BP5608_И:
(https://i.ibb.co/HPZqcnx/BP5608-stock.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/m8XDQh7/BP5608-right-crossbolt.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/3Yc88gV/BP5608-receiver.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/kBd7x6S/BP5608-import-stamp.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
(https://i.ibb.co/c1WV9zv/BP5608-right-stock.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
So the $64,000 question is: Are any of these 'un-issued' and in their original state? Hell if I'd say they were (or *any* other SKS for that matter, but that is a whole other story). They are damn nice though, have clear cartouches, and I only pulled the first three I found, ending at Prefix "BP". What does that tell you? It tells me that '57 hardwood stocks are not out of the realm of possibility...
Rm, you think this star was humped by West rifle?
(https://i.ibb.co/YXJzwkj/O-3613-K-stock.jpg)
Also, what all examples can you provide as to the WestRifle "totally unsuitable for data collection purposes with their 'enhanced' stocks"?
Thanks, RM. Seriously.
So not at all out of the realm of possibility. But I'm still not ready to let the crow thaw.
As illustrated already in this thread, the evidence for refurbishment can often be elusive. IMHO, barring such evidence it's still inconclusive.
My standard would be photos of ALL serials, especially the EP serials on the gas tubes. AND the annealing stripes on the top covers for signs of re-blue.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 02:49:56 PM
Also, what all examples can you provide as to the WestRifle "totally unsuitable for data collection purposes with their 'enhanced' stocks"?
Rhetorical question for the shadow audience?
Maybe not by them specifically, but by the exporter who wanted to get top dollar for them. Westrifle sold many of them, so I call them "Westrifle guns" which is probably not fair since I'm sure a whole bunch of others sold them as well. When you see stars and dates cartouches suddenly show up on guns that had zero recorded instances of them for darn near 30 years, something's fishy in Denmark.
They may never have gotten caught if they didn't do outrageous things like stamp '49's and 56's-58's.
As it is, most Canadians don't really much care it seems. It's an original unissued, un-refurbed, unfired gun to all of them and you can talk and try to call attention to thee descrepancies til you're blue in the face, but in the end you either a) just don't understand or b) you're jealous of their $200 SVT40s.
There were no import marks on my 57. Boris had suggested that because I had a hardwood stock and a laminate handguard that stock was replaced. I countered the other way. Took more pictures of gas tube for your observation.
https://ibb.co/album/iEEagF
Quote from: running-man on February 17, 2019, 02:56:21 PM
Maybe not by them specifically, but by the exporter who wanted to get top dollar for them. Westrifle sold many of them, so I call them "Westrifle guns" which is probably not fair since I'm sure a whole bunch of others sold them as well. When you see stars and dates cartouches suddenly show up on guns that had zero recorded instances of them for darn near 30 years, something's fishy in Denmark.
They may never have gotten caught if they didn't do outrageous things like stamp '49's and 56's-58's. :o :o
As it is, most Canadians don't really much care it seems. It's an original unissued, un-refurbed, unfired gun to all of them and you can talk and try to call attention to thee descrepancies til you're blue in the face, but in the end you either a) just don't understand or b) you're jealous of their $200 SVT40s.
Where was this posted... remind me.
Quote from: jstin2 on February 17, 2019, 02:57:43 PM
There were no import marks on my 57. Boris had suggested that because I had a hardwood stock and a laminate handguard that stock was replaced. I countered the other way. Took more pictures of gas tube for your observation.
https://ibb.co/album/iEEagF
Despite the obvious refurb indicators, your suggestion still has some merit:
Namely that the stock could (stressing, the conditional tense) be original, with an obvious replacement handguard.
Or possibly both are non-original to the rifle.
Regarding inspection stamps around the rifle crossbolts:
I've never quite understood why the presence of the stamps is considered an indication of a the stock being original to the rifle.
Couldn't the crossbolt stamps just as easily be exclusive the stock manufacturing and inspection process and have nothing to do with the barreled action?
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
Where was this posted... remind me.
Heck man, it's out there somewhere. It was probably two years ago, i've slept since then! I'll see if i can find some of the egregious ones and post them here. I specifically remember a 1949 in a laminate stock with a tula star and 1949 date on it. The gun was a total dog otherwise. Not sure what they were aiming for there. I'll get something by this evening.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 17, 2019, 02:55:40 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 02:49:56 PM
Also, what all examples can you provide as to the WestRifle "totally unsuitable for data collection purposes with their 'enhanced' stocks"?
Rhetorical question for the shadow audience?
rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl rofl.......... rofl2
Quote from: running-man on February 17, 2019, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
Where was this posted... remind me.
Heck man, it's out there somewhere. It was probably two years ago, i've slept since then! I'll see if i can find some of the egregious ones and post them here. I specifically remember a 1949 in a laminate stock with a tula star and 1949 date on it. The gun was a total dog otherwise. Not sure what they were aiming for there. I'll get something by this evening.
I seem to remember that one too... wasn't it one of those ones that was rather short lived and the OP took his ball and went home?
QuoteCouldn't the crossbolt stamps just as easily be exclusive the stock manufacturing and inspection process and have nothing to do with the barreled action?
Bingo
Under zero circumstances would any military firearms manufacturer apply inspection stamps to a stock that had anything to do with measurements/tolerances of the metal components within it. Stocks are expected to be replaced.... the QC stamps having to do with fabrication, fitment, and calibration of the metal components will be stamped in respective locations..... which they are.
The crossbolt stamps in the stock are without question in reference to the fabrication of the stock itself. Crossbolt bore hole diameter, countersink diameter, width, axis location, not to mention all the internal in-letting measurements.
Quote from: running-man on February 17, 2019, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
Where was this posted... remind me.
Heck man, it's out there somewhere. It was probably two years ago, i've slept since then! I'll see if i can find some of the egregious ones and post them here. I specifically remember a 1949 in a laminate stock with a tula star and 1949 date on it. The gun was a total dog otherwise. Not sure what they were aiming for there. I'll get something by this evening.
...and the re-serialized receiver (iirc it was BO prefix?) with the shadow leftover from the original serial. That one still gives me chills. To imagine. that if they had just spent a little more time on the grinding wheel, no one would have been the wiser.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 03:33:10 PM
QuoteCouldn't the crossbolt stamps just as easily be exclusive the stock manufacturing and inspection process and have nothing to do with the barreled action?
Bingo
Under zero circumstances would any military firearms manufacturer apply inspection stamps to a stock that had anything to do with measurements/tolerances of the metal components within it. Stocks are expected to be replaced.... the QC stamps having to do with fabrication, fitment, and calibration of the metal complainants will be stamped in respective locations..... which they are.
But where did the notion come from? (mostly rhetorical question, so no need to answer...unless there is an actual origin for this notion.)
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 03:33:10 PM
QuoteCouldn't the crossbolt stamps just as easily be exclusive the stock manufacturing and inspection process and have nothing to do with the barreled action?
Bingo
Under zero circumstances would any military firearms manufacturer apply inspection stamps to a stock that had anything to do with measurements/tolerances of the metal components within it. Stocks are expected to be replaced.... the QC stamps having to do with fabrication, fitment, and calibration of the metal components will be stamped in respective locations..... which they are.
The crossbolt stamps in the stock are without question in reference to the fabrication of the stock itself. Crossbolt bore hole diameter, countersink diameter, width, axis location, not to mention all the internal in-letting measurements.
Actually, I do see how they could be associated with final production. But then, how to explain why so much variation in the quantity of crossbolt stamps? And also why only some have them on the right side?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 17, 2019, 03:36:48 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 03:33:10 PM
QuoteCouldn't the crossbolt stamps just as easily be exclusive the stock manufacturing and inspection process and have nothing to do with the barreled action?
Bingo
Under zero circumstances would any military firearms manufacturer apply inspection stamps to a stock that had anything to do with measurements/tolerances of the metal components within it. Stocks are expected to be replaced.... the QC stamps having to do with fabrication, fitment, and calibration of the metal complainants will be stamped in respective locations..... which they are.
But where did the notion come from? (mostly rhetorical question, so no need to answer...unless there is an actual origin for this notion.)
Im guessing (back in the day) they were seen to primarily only visible on guns that 'seemingly' are 'as issued'. The presents of these stamps however only tell you that the stock is new and not itself been sanded and shellac reapplied. Some refurbs received new stock, some received refurbished stocks.
QuoteActually, I do see how they could be associated with final production
I dont.... it literally flies in the face of common sense. Unless you mean final production of the stock itself. :)
There is a reason why the (K) stamp is on the lug etc, and its not on the stock.... thats retarded.
Lets just think about this for a min....
Your working at a rework facility and 100 guns come in. 80 of said guns the stocks are reusable so are refinished and reused, however more serious issues such as Ivanov using the the stock to drive in tent stakes have to be replaced entirely. Your going to need new or nos stocks as replacements.... 20 of them to be exact.
I don't know that I subscribe to the thought that the cross bolt stamps have meaning for only the stock and not the completed firearm. As far as I know, they have not been decoded yet and it's not a stretch to expect that final QC firearm stamps could be put there. QC stamps need tracked as the firearm goes through its stages of production and are mostly irrelevant after it has been released and used (unless something catastrophic happens and they need to trace exactly what happened with a bad lot of guns). If a stock gets replaced at a later date refurb, the original QC record of original production is really not relevant I'd think. dntknw1
So,...the greater the number of crossbolt stamps, the more times the stock has been off the rifle post production?
We know from the log books of Yugos, that when in storage they were pulled periodically from the crates and inspected. I dont see why a similar instance may happen with russians and they simply record the inspection right on the stock. However, if these stamps originate when the stock was built.... common sense tells me they are QC stamps related to the manufacture of the stock itself which as RM suggest, wouldn't be of any use to a rework facility to reapply after refinishing a stock.
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 04:06:38 PM
We know from the log books of Yugos, that when in storage they were pulled periodically from the crates and inspected.
That's what I think. QC and periodical inspection. But... the early production would have more crossbolt stamps than the latter one.
Quote from: jaroslav on February 19, 2019, 08:04:45 PM
Quote from: Loose}{Cannon on February 17, 2019, 04:06:38 PM
We know from the log books of Yugos, that when in storage they were pulled periodically from the crates and inspected.
That's what I think. QC and periodical inspection. But... the early production would have more crossbolt stamps than the latter one.
I was just about to post the same thought.
When I was working at the shop, there were random inspections.
QA would randomly pull a component and go over it with a fine tooth comb. He would then log the results and mark said component.
Maybe this is what we're seeing....
Of course I could be full of crap, as well...... :)
I found this 57 hardwood for sale. I at first thought it was original, but noticed that there is a refurb mark on receiver cover. Still it is in very good condition.
https://ibb.co/album/jczZrF
That gun is a total sham jstin. I guess we can be thankful that the scammers don't understand all the intricacies of SKS serialization yet, but they will soon learn. At some point it will be very difficult to stay one step ahead of them.
I bought this from a private seller, who had advertised all matching. Had a few pictures in ad and they looked good. I can't blame him for stuff done by previous seller or distributor. Once received, I could see what I have. Still for $325.00 CDN shipped, still not a bad buy. Enlighten us with the problems with this carbine. This will be a learning experience for all.
Is it the stock or gas tube which is in question?
Date designations were omitted from the stocks some time in 1955.
The И on the stock serial is a dead giveaway.
I was wondering about И on the stock. Now the question is when and where it was done? Also what bout the cross bolt stamps? The value of carbine did not appreciate due to this. I took some more pictures of the markings on the stock. One thing that I noticed was that there was a faint M above the serial number.
https://ibb.co/album/gCsFyv
Yes jstin, the stock is the big one, though I couldn't say whether other piece parts haven't been freshened up as well. Those crossbolt stamps are like nothing I've ever seen on a letter gun though. Makes me wonder why they would put them there when other stamps wouldn't have drawn so much attention. The stamp body impressions on the wood around the S/N as well as the aspect ratio of the characters also point to aftermarket stamps, not the type typically used during initial builds.
Please don't get the impression that I'm ragging on your carbine here, it's in quite nice shape and would make a fine shooter. Heck I'd love to have a dozen of these at the price you likely paid for it!! If you didn't pay a premium for it being "unissued/unfired/non-refurbished" you did just fine, especially in the Canadian market. It is simply not something that should be marketed as a collectible SKS since it has been 'humped'. The WWII collectible firearms communities have dealt with this for quite a while, it appears we are going to have to deal with it in our little SKS community going forward as well.
Dang it, I can't stand true humpers who deface historical firearms for fraudulent profiteering bat1 fart1
What I can't fathom is why someone would go to trouble to fabricate the stock. I could see original or possibly at refurb doing this. If someone was going to profit doing so, I could see. But purchase price of $285.00 plus $40.00 shipping. And this is in Canadian dollars. It was only advertised as all matching and did not command a premium price. And if previous owner paid a higher price he would have jacked up my price. But I have to agree that there is something iffy about the stock.
Certainly not cost effective to do a single stock like that, but do that to the whole import batch and you're talking some real money. Even a 20% bump in price could be tens or hundreds of thousands of CAD. This type of modification was done at a systematic level prior to being sold at retail. Perhaps it was simply a way to move inventory that wasn't selling well as in the case of that 49 that languished on the westrifle website for years. Hard to say why, we can only track that it indeed did happen and try and see a pattern in what they did so our membership can be on the lookout for it in the future.
Here's a similar unicorn fake.
Via...
yep...
Canada:
https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=495.msg5859#msg5859
I remember reading that there were several refurb facilities set up. Who is to say that the stock was replaced there and stamped. I find it odd that someone would have Russian stamps ready to use(other than Westrifle??). Sand out the old S/N's and restamp. What was done at refurb is still a mystery to all. Ivan could have done it as a joke. There is no date on it other than the И and several cross bolt stamps. It is easier to XXXX it out old S/N's and restamp. When Canadian Tire and Cabelas were selling the average cost for a Tula SKS in Canada was around $250.00. Other retail outlets were around the same price. The super grade was about $100.00 to $150.00 extra. And like I mentioned before my price was $285.00 CDN.
What would be the average markup for retail sale in Canada?
If retail was around $250...they likely paid less than half of that. Invest in a set of stamps that on wood could be used indefinitely...get a semi accomplished woodworker...and a little time....it could easily be quite profitable to spruce up the less common ones to look like new, and charge nearly twice the price. Canada did have the advantage of a much shorter learning curve than we did...because of the internet, and folks like us. However, unless you REALLY invest a lot of time into research...it would be easy for mistakes to be made....especially since even now, the research is incomplete and likely flawed as a result....Dating stocks that shouldn't be dated is a symptom.
I know that when Canadian Tire and Cabelas were selling Russian SKS, there were no price differences between a rifle with a XXXX out stock and a normal stock. But you also got to check out several before buying. Also another item to consider is what was done at storage facilities and refurb since the USA embargo and now. Things could have changed in the many years that have past.
Quote from: running-man on March 15, 2019, 01:26:39 PM
The stamp body impressions on the wood around the S/N as well as the aspect ratio of the characters also point to aftermarket stamps, not the type typically used during initial builds.
This confirmed what I thought I saw in my very limited knowledge. My thought is on the stock it may have been a blank and never serial'd why no xxxx out or sanding.
I agree also that it's a real nice shooter.
Quote from: jstin2 on March 16, 2019, 01:18:03 PM
I know that when Canadian Tire and Cabelas were selling Russian SKS, there were no price differences between a rifle with a XXXX out stock and a normal stock. But you also got to check out several before buying. Also another item to consider is what was done at storage facilities and refurb since the USA embargo and now. Things could have changed in the many years that have past.
I guess it could be jstin. The thing I'm having such a hard time wrapping my head around is that I've shown conclusive proof with that '49 example in the other thread that SKS's are being actively humped while on Canadian soil (they are in the US too by the way). Before chasing down the rabbit hole of the 'Russians changed refurb practices between the US imports and the Canadian ones', isn't it less of a stretch to to note that the majority of Westrifle guns are 'off', the humped guns we've seen are all tied to WR in some way, and a good majority of the other Canadian SKSs sold at retail in the past 5 years really don't have these 'off' traits (ie. they have std. refurbishment characteristics)? Perhaps WR's exporter modified these, perhaps WR did it themselves, perhaps it's a third party that's doing it after they sell at wholesale. The fact is, someone is doing it and the Canadian connection is ridiculously strong.
As justin hell points out, it is well worth it to do this type of 'freshening' in quantity just to make an additional $50 per rifle as long as the labor effort isn't too intensive. I don't know that they were trying to deceive people that these guns are "unissued/non-nrefurbished/unfired" (which of course, now that they are out in the wild a good majority now assume), but they were certainly trying to make these guns appear to be in better condition than when they were pulled out of storage in. The only reason they would do this is to make them easier to sell and/or to be able to sell them at a premium price to an unsuspecting milsurp market.