(I know, butt plates is the given term but I prefer 'end plate' or 'stock plate' to 'butt plate')
We are all aware of the contemporaneous production of what are essentially EXACT copies of the late sks45, in both China and Romania.
We also know that Soviet technical advisers oversaw the firs 4-5 years of Chinese production-- and I would guess also early Romanian production.
Aside from stock wood, every indication suggests that the Chinese and Romanians followed the same exact design, production and finishing protocols that the Soviets did. Largely (I would suspect), if not entirely due to the direct influence, direction and oversight of Soviet technical advisers.
If the Early type 56's and Romanian carbines exhibit no signs of ep serials on the stock end plates, it seems a worthy argument can be made that EP serials on 45 end plates are not a trait of original condition.
I'd like to hear your opinions on this.
[At least one CDN collector claims that ep serials on end plates were standard on all new SKS45's a starting in mid 1954.]
I'd lean towards China & Romania just having said f*** it to serializing em tbh.
Not sure why Russia would bother serializing them later / on replacements plates.
My matching 56' that I recently posted has the serialized plate. Judging by the gun's overall condition I highly doubt it was in need of a replacement & I can't think of a reason that they'd electro it later on.
Non-Russian producers of the SKS probably said, "hey, buttplates (or whatever term you prefer) aren't integral to the rifle's function, so, let's not waste our time."
Quote from: Worm on March 09, 2019, 11:44:49 AM
I'd lean towards China & Romania just having said f*** it to serializing em tbh.
Not sure why Russia would bother serializing them later / on replacements plates.
My matching 56' that I recently posted has the serialized plate. Judging by the gun's overall condition I highly doubt it was in need of a replacement & I can't think of a reason that they'd electro it later on.
Non-soviet producers of the SKS probably said, "hey, buttplates (or whatever term you prefer) aren't integral to the rifle's function, so, let's not waste our time."
Early Chinese production and likely Romanian production too, was for all intents and purposes, an extension of the Soviet production process. Soviet design, all the same attributes in finished product, and under the direction and supervision of Soviet technical advisors. Essentially Soviet production lines moved to a foreign country.
Eps on all the same parts (rear sight leaf, extractor claw, piston shaft and gas tube) with the sole exception of the stock end plates.
Quote from: Worm on March 09, 2019, 11:44:49 AM
Not sure why Russia would bother serializing them later / on replacements plates.
For the soviet guns there is significant evidence of strict regime of regular insepection, repair and rebuild. No such evidence exists for such extensive programs in Romania, China (or Albania).
EP serials also appear on plates that have been painted-- meaning applied after post production paint has been applied-- an obvious indication that at least some plate serials were applied long after initial production.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 09, 2019, 11:53:37 AMEps on all the same parts (rear sight leaf, extractor claw, piston shaft and gas tube) with the sole exception of the stock end plates.
All integral for basic function. Plates - not so much.
Different countries, different people w/ different ideas, regardless of who's doing the initial teaching. Or, the advisors doing the teaching said, "Don't bother."
Give me a good reason the Russians would add serials to the plates
later on. Why would it be important to them later if it wasn't initially?
Quote from: Worm on March 09, 2019, 12:07:30 PM
Give me a good reason the Russians would add serials to the plates later on. Why would it be important to them later if it wasn't initially?
Stock plates aren't always a precise fit. Over time, use, and even just in storage they will acquire a more perfect fit with the stock they are paired with.
Evidence indicates that the soviet guns were regularly (even rigourously) inspected, and repaired. And stocks were also regularly re-finished.
Stock plates would have been removed during refinishing. The plates would have been ep serialized in order to return them to the stocks they already fit, instead of haphazardly refitting them to stocks that weren't already perfect fits.
I beg to differ... Romania did in fact serialize butt plates.... end plates.... whatever, it's attached to the butt stock. :)
Clear as day, a Romanian serial
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/ahw20bb3ffbepb2/SAM_3604.JPG?dl=0)
Very worn butt plate, the remnants of a serial remain... there is also the same as another I have, that my camera will not pick up, but a faint serial can be seen with the naked eye
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/u6t7zokk8gbljej/SAM_3599.JPG?dl=0)
A mark off another Romanian, this plate seems very recently replaced, it has full blueing and very little in wear or scratches
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/74yijpnkycjfd0u/SAM_3602.JPG?dl=0).
Thats 3 out of 4 butt plates that have serials, 1 has a replacement and no serial. EP serials are great...for low wear areas, but a butt plate is not, how many floors and hard surfaces does it wear on, corners od a room, storage racks, being shouldered wears it, cracking skulls, the plate gets abused. I have a Hakim rifle, the butt plate is almost worn in two on the top edge from sand and crap.
There are also far more QC stamps on my Russians than my Romanians. Does that mean the Russians added them later? Prob not
Given heavy wear characteristic of the Romanian guns, I see no logical way that an EP serial could remain that fresh --especially on the stock plate-- unless it was applied many years after initial production.
Quote from: Worm on March 09, 2019, 12:33:54 PM
There are also far more QC stamps on my Russians than my Romanians. Does that mean the Russians added them later? Prob not
I would say, yes.
It's just further evidence of the rigorous QC standards practiced by the Soviets.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 09, 2019, 12:37:45 PM
Given heavy wear characteristic of the Romanian guns, I see no logical way that an EP serial could remain that fresh --especially on the stock plate-- unless it was applied many years after initial production.
Hold up.. on one side your saying they did not serialize them, now your saying you see there is no logicial way...it could remain that fresh. They did do crude refurbs... no they didn't do like Russia and totally scrub it down, clean and paint stuff and re-pencil everything. Not everyone did things the Russian way, it's like comparing apples to oranges, a little broke backwoods nation vs. the whole Russian empire.... They did it on the cheap, they fixed the issues and sent them back out the door...case in point, a Romanian with a Yugoslavian bolt shoved in it.
If you look that plate is not that old, it still has most of the blueing.. so it wasn't a factory plate, kind of like the one with no serial, both probably hit the crude refurb shop and got swapped out, one just got renumbered. But...........yet there is a very well worn ones that are possibly factory plates, actually 2 that have remnants of a serial number.
Or... are you ever so delicately trying to say, someone here, and not in Romania, EP'ed all 3 of my plates.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 09, 2019, 12:37:45 PM
Given heavy wear characteristic of the Romanian guns, I see no logical way that an EP serial could remain that fresh --especially on the stock plate-- unless it was applied many years after initial production.
Isn't that implying that GM's Romy has heavy wear without even seeing the rifle?
There are plenty of Romanian SKSs is great condition.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 09, 2019, 12:39:46 PM
Quote from: Worm on March 09, 2019, 12:33:54 PM
There are also far more QC stamps on my Russians than my Romanians. Does that mean the Russians added them later? Prob not
I would say, yes.
It's just further evidence of the rigorous QC standards practiced by the Soviets.
I disagree. I'd imagine one would be able to tell if receiver stamps were added later on
Basically, I don't think it's that farfetched to believe a country like China decided to save some time not doing something that ultimately didn't matter on some dime-a-dozen carbines.
To be clear. I am not stating anything as outright as an absolute fact.
However I am taking a position to argue. Namely, that there is a good argument to be made that EP serials on sks45 stock plates aren't original traits.
Worm-- one thing we know for a fact about the Romanian imports is that they saw heavy use and overall, exhibited every indication of extensive service life. Unlike many of the soviet guns which spent much of their serviceable lives in storage, the Romanian m56's were rode hard.
Also, the stock plate on any rifle gets an inordinate amount of contact wear not only from service use and drills, but also just sitting in the rack at the armory.
My suggestion was not that the EP on GM's GN prefix rifle was a post import DIY application. Intead I am suggesting that for an EP serial on the part of the rifle that gets an inordinately high amount of contact wear, the ep is exceedingly crisp for it to have been applied 60 years ago.
Quote from: Worm on March 09, 2019, 01:18:36 PM
Basically, I don't think it's that farfetched to believe a country like China decided to save some time not doing something that ultimately didn't matter on some dime-a-dozen carbines.
For me this explanation has some merit once the Chinese began to deviate from the soviet design in the early 1960's.
However, until 1959-60, Chinese production was a carbon copy of Soviet process and protocol. Exact copies of the late sks45 design, manufactured Under the direct supervision of Soviet technical experts.
So.... there is no way, they could have been refurbed and thrown in storage.. nea1
Romania started manufacturing and issuing AKs in 1963-64.. but, also at this time, early '60's their military was still using a huge number of PPSH-41s and were using Russian imported AKs, both are automatic, high capacity weapons.... so, your going to tell troops to give up their Ak's or a PPSH, for an SKS......Talk about a down grade in equipment..... so realistically, how long did the SKS remain in service after......
ding ding.....right.. no one knows exactly.... SKSs could have been used until enough native produced AKs... the PM md.63, and then the PM md.65.....in 1965 were starting in circulation, then the SKS gradually phased out and moved to rear line troops, guard units and maybe training aids, then even those were phased out in time as the Ak numbers increased... in the mean time, those out of service SKSs could have been refurbed.. fixed to function and then stored away and never thought about again, like every other Communist nation did, save for the big one. Now... if this were the case, it is entirely plausible a serial on a butt plate could look fresh many, many years later, the first Romanian SKSs were imported in 2000. I would imagine the SKS lasted in service probably about as long as their Mosin M44 did, as both were made for limited years just to satisfy the Russians.
Yes, there are some whooped Romanian SKSs...but, there are some exceedingly nice sampled floating around, not every one is a whooped wore out hunk of junk. I have one thats in very nice shape, excellent blueing and wood, while one is a total mismatch beast of war that never happened, their condition can vary wildly across the board.
But to use a blanket statement and say....
Quoteone thing we know for a fact about the Romanian imports is that they saw heavy use and overall, exhibited every indication of extensive service life
I will argue this till the cows come home... not every one was whooped on, there are some very nice condition examples out there....no, they aren't the usual pristine uppity Russians you see, but they are just as nice in their own way. In my years of looking and fondling Romanian SKSs, there is about a 1/3 that are in real nice condition, 1/3 that are used and somewhat show it, and 1/3 that are whooped on making you wonder if they even work. Thing is, the first 1/3 that are nice, they rarely show up, they are hidden and tucked away in collectors closets. What you usually see are the left overs, the whooped ones people dump cause they found a better condition one somewhere or think it ugly, or it's been bubba'ed..
My 57' Romy. Barely visible, but there
(https://i.ibb.co/3cWJfHh/DC7-D3389-E8-D0-4-F8-C-8-B06-5-DB81-AFEFFFB.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GRkhsjP)
It's an interesting topic for sure. This is one reason I love milsurps. Always something to wonder about & try to figure out.
So...now, 4 butt plates have serials.. Like my 2 unreadable serials, they are etched just below the top screw.
And... why would Romania EP serials at a later time... to what advantage .. it was a production thing I think, also it could have been hit or miss in a refurb shop. What happens when the butt plate serial doesn't match the stock or receiver.. How would that be justified?
That butt plate serial with the crisp number.......does not match any other part on that particular rifle. Both the receiver and stock have a "GH" prefix and are number matching, neither have that "GN" prefix.
Take from this what you will..
Recently I purchased a Russian hardwood stock & a Russian laminate stock. Neither fit my '57 Romanian (I buy beater stocks for the guns i want to use so I don't damage the originals). I figured it would have been "plug-n'-play," but I was wrong. Just out of curiosity, I just tried fitting my.. "smithsonian" ( rofl2 ) Russian's laminate stock to my '57 Romanian also, and once again, it doesn't fit. The crossbolt does not align. I would have to file a significant amount in the stock where the rear tang (with the trigger "release tab") fits into the stock for any of them to fit my Romy properly.
Mind you, this is a first year production Romanian, when, if at all they would have the most Russian influence on their design. They also had some other more obvious machining differences like the "I" sight leaf, the bulge for the bayo slot on the stock ferrule, and probably some other small, less noticable ones. So, regardless of Russian design, supply & help, the Romanians seemed to have done their own thing from the get-go, even though it seems quite evident now that they did include the buttplate serial after all.
I'll have to recheck my Romy's a little more closely.
Is there any evidence of ep serials on early type56's?
I don't think Russia had quite the control over Romania it did China. Romania also had large amounts of 8mm Mausers..... Like Yugoslavian and the Czech's...they were cranking out large amounts of 8mm ammo in the 60s-80s, I have 3 such sealed crates of Romanian 8mm from various times. Looking at their Mosins production which is comparatively low, if Russia had that much control, why didn't they scrap the Mauser for the Mosins. Same with Bulgaria... Russian control, they had Mosins and no known SKSs, Poland under Russian control had Mosins and few SKS.
Not everyone held to Soviet doctrine.. look at the Czech's, with the Vz.52, Vz-52/57 and Vz.58. no Soviet influeance short of ammo compatibility in the later two. That's what drove away the 7.62x45 Czech round, even though it had slightly better ballistics, they had to stay within the M43 Soviet ammo design.
Another case in point, look at the lack of inspection stamps on the Romanian vs early Chinese or Russians, while some stamps are the same, there are some missing, like the double o, (o) stamp. They used the (k) proof.
And their Ak stock design is also different than Russian, with the forward grip.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 09, 2019, 04:12:34 PMIs there any evidence of ep serials on early type56's?
Not sure, maybe someone else can chime in with that info. Earliest I had was a ghost & I can't remember anything about it.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on March 09, 2019, 04:15:36 PM
I don't think Russia had quite the control over Romania it did China.
Another case in point, look at the lack of inspection stamps on the Romanian vs early Chinese or Russians, while some stamps are the same, there are some missing, like the double o, (o) stamp. They used the (k) proof.
And their Ak stock design is also different than Russian, with the forward grip.
Truth.
I'm a big fan of the AK "dongs." Love that design.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 09, 2019, 04:12:34 PM
I'll have to recheck my Romy's a little more closely.
I'd be very interested in what is found.. I wish I could get the other one to show up in pictures, but my dinky camera won't pick the number up.
After 27 attempts, this is the best I could get. :)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/sglkdi2g7y66qq1/SAM_3601.JPG?dl=0)
My Romy has a serial in that exact location... dont match the receiver. banghead1
$199 to the first that calls dibbs.