This was sent in via the survey. Unfortunately he didn't leave an email address so I couldn't get back to him, but this is a weird duck. First photos of everything but the weirdness:
(https://i.ibb.co/N7g2kvH/31074xx-buttplate.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/YNCp88C/31074xx-import-stamp.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/8mQxvhR/31074xx-receiver-bottom.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/6FhnDQP/31074xx-receiver-bottom2.jpg)
I would love to hear your guys' thoughts on this one. I will post the weirdness tomorrow when we have a bit of discussion going as to what everyone thinks this gun is based on the above. thumb1
Looks like an early chinese in an alby replacement stock.
Well, butt plate at least looks Albanian. Import mark says Chinese, I've never really paid too much attention to 'hidden' stampings so can't comment on that part too much, but triangle stamps always make me think Chinese.
Did the Chinese used Cyrillic proof stamps? I guess it'd make sense for the early ones if they literally took everything.
The receiver looks like Russian Tula made.
Okay, now that you got me looking closer at the proof stamps I'd have to go Russian as well unless it's a soviet-sino setup.
The reason I said early Chinese was because the Sino-soviet connection with stampings on those early Chinese rifles being similar/same to Russian Cyrillic markings. The importer marking it as such as well drew me towards it being that rather than a Russian, It'd have to be one of the two. Perhaps a sneaky boy? :)
Now I'm double taking on the stock. The double trap door setup is obviously Albanian, so I initially assumed beech wood, ie; replacement Alby stock.
I'm now questioning whether it could be a 'Chu' Chinese wood stock with an Alby butt plate replacement...? think1
Can't wait to see the interesting pics RM! thumb1
Another add, the wood and finish on the stock looks Albanian or Chinese. Side sling loop would be Chinese or Albanian as they were the only ones like that with that wood grain and finish. Meaning, what North Vietnamese and North Korean we have seen have a different wood and finish to them.
The receiver is labeled with Tula Factory symbol and Tula unique quality control/proof marks.
Maybe..... it's another.. Soviet Sino :)
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 23, 2021, 04:53:58 PM
Maybe..... it's another.. Soviet Sino :)
Or is it...a Sino-Soviet!!! :o Yeah, I am weird that way rofl rofl
Soviet Sinobanian
Oh boy I can't wait.... popcorn1
If RM is playing teasers this has to be good!
Soviet receiver or first 2K Type 56 with a definite Albanian beech stock. Looking forward to the punchline. ;)
Sinoslavainian Rusbanian thumb1
OK, what is this is on a Mosin? And RM is making arrangements to buy it? chuckles1 chuckles1 nea1
I see an late soviet or early Chinese receiver in an Albanian replacement stock.
If had to guess about the weirdness...
Maybe it will have an Albanian handguard and associated implications?
Or better yet, a Soviet sneak re-outfitted with an Albanian stock?
Or even better yet, both.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 12:18:42 AM
I see an late soviet or early Chinese receiver in an Albanian replacement stock.
If had to guess about the weirdness...
Maybe it will have an Albanian handguard and associated implications?
Or better yet, a Soviet sneak re-outfitted with an Albanian stock?
Or even better yet, both.
I know nothing about Chinese SKS. My question is, are early Chinese SKS receivers stamped with Soviet factory symbol? Thanks!
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 25, 2021, 12:38:44 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 12:18:42 AM
I see an late soviet or early Chinese receiver in an Albanian replacement stock.
If had to guess about the weirdness...
Maybe it will have an Albanian handguard and associated implications?
Or better yet, a Soviet sneak re-outfitted with an Albanian stock?
Or even better yet, both.
I know nothing about Chinese SKS. My question is, are early Chinese SKS receivers stamped with Soviet factory symbol? Thanks!
Yes, very early chinese guns have soviet inspection.stamps. i think only in the first year. Possibly just the soviet star carbines.
But possibly some early ghosts?
I misread you question p2000.
First ~2,000 -2,100 chinese guns have the soviet star on the receiver. Presumably Soviet made.
Then in the mid 2000 serial range the ghost guns start. No Star and No arsenal stamp until ~213k. Iirc.
Does anyone recall if the Romanian m56's have the Soviet style inspection stamps?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 12:59:38 AM
I misread you question p2000.
First ~2,000 -2,100 chinese guns have the soviet star on the receiver. Presumably Soviet made.
Then in the mid 2000 serial range the ghost guns start. No Star and No arsenal stamp until ~213k. Iirc.
Thank you very much! Interesting and good to know. A quick follow up question. When you mentioned the Soviet Star on receiver, did you refer to the star stamped on the left side of receiver, above wood line?
I noticed the rifle in question has a Tula star stamped on bottom of receiver. Shown in OP's 4th (last pic). Is Tula star stamped at this position common on Sino Soviet too?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 01:20:42 AM
Does anyone recall if the Romanian m56's have the Soviet style inspection stamps?
I just checked my 1960 Romy and it did not have the soviet style 'inspection stamped to death' bottom of the receiver. :)) Very few markings in fact.
Not sure if they, like the Chinese, adopted the soviet style inspection stamps early on and did away with them later on down the road though. Might have to have one of the gents around here with one of the really early ones to chime in there. thumb1
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 25, 2021, 01:44:38 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 12:59:38 AM
I misread you question p2000.
First ~2,000 -2,100 chinese guns have the soviet star on the receiver. Presumably Soviet made.
Then in the mid 2000 serial range the ghost guns start. No Star and No arsenal stamp until ~213k. Iirc.
Thank you very much! Interesting and good to know. A quick follow up question. When you mentioned the Soviet Star on receiver, did you refer to the star stamped on the left side of receiver, above wood line?
I noticed the rifle in question has a Tula star stamped on bottom of receiver. Shown in OP's 4th (last pic). Is Tula star stamped at this position common on Sino Soviet too?
pcke2000.. see this for markings, I own the one at the bottom of the page and could provide any photos you want of markings.. http://chinesesks.weebly.com/195556-soviet-sino.html
Quote from: Shoot The Refurbs on February 25, 2021, 02:25:02 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 01:20:42 AM
Does anyone recall if the Romanian m56's have the Soviet style inspection stamps?
I just checked my 1960 Romy and it did not have the soviet style 'inspection stamped to death' bottom of the receiver. :)) Very few markings in fact.
Not sure if they, like the Chinese, adopted the soviet style inspection stamps early on and did away with them later on down the road though. Might have to have one of the gents around here with one of the really early ones to chime in there. thumb1
All 4 years of mine have very limited markings, I'd guess... They had their own inspection routine and markings, the barrel shank has some similarities in marks, but that may be commie proofing method. I can provide photos of those marks, they are shared across Mosins and a few other weapons.
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 25, 2021, 01:44:38 AM
I noticed the rifle in question has a Tula star stamped on bottom of receiver. Shown in OP's 4th (last pic). Is Tula star stamped at this position common on Sino Soviet too?
I don't believe that partial star stamp is a Tula star. When properly struck, although it is a 5point star, it does not resemble the Soviet Receiver Star.
That stamp in particular is most likely just another inspection stamp in the Soviet whack-a-mole inspection free for all.
Gm, thanks for the info on the Romy guns. My two 1960 romys are in deep storage.
Do we know who, if anyone, has a no date Romy?
Since rm has yet to share the "weird" photos...
I think we can say for sure that the op receiver is soviet in origin. Either a soviet sneak or a true sino-soviet. It has also been refitted with an Albanian stock.
What strikes me are the photos that rm has not shared in the OP. So those absent photos are where the weirdness resides.
No serial number photos, no parts groups.
Another guess:
All matching gun. Soviet receiver. Albanian carrier and possibly handguard.
The suggestion of an Albanian handguard is really just my attempt to get as "weird" as possible. But man that would be really weird, and also VERY cool. It would also indicate a likely barrel replacement.
Also weird would be a 1949 90°gas port sks45, in an Albanian stock.
Quote from: Cz315 on February 23, 2021, 02:50:46 PM
Did the Chinese used Cyrillic proof stamps? I guess it'd make sense for the early ones if they literally took everything.
Early on the Chinese had their own, distinct inspection stamps which they applied In similar quantities to the Soviet inspection stamping patterns.
By 1957 or 58. The inspection stamps on the sides and undersides of the Chinese receivers disappear entirely. There are really great photos which document this progression at Chinesesks.weebly under the "26 Progression" links.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 08:01:10 AM
Gm, thanks for the info on the Romy guns. My two 1960 romys are in deep storage.
Do we know who, if anyone, has a no date Romy?
A no date Romanian is about my only interest in the SKS realm..... I haven't seen one listed in...many years. :(
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 25, 2021, 12:07:00 PM
A no date Romanian is about my only interest in the SKS realm..... I haven't seen one listed in...many years. :(
So VERY early Romanian isn't entirely out of the question
I'll get even weirder...(pure fantasy weird):
How about a, A NO-date Romy, masquerading as a Soviet sneak, wearing an Albanian beechwood stock, with a Made In China import stamp.
A Romy-Sino-Soviet-Banian sneak.
Now THAT would be weird. Though, I highly idoubt it.
My money is still on a Soviet sneak or Soviet-sino, in an albanian stock. Possibly wearing distinctly Albanian hardware and possibly scrubbed and restamped to match.
RM-- any idea when the "weirdness" photos will be posted?
popcorn1 popcorn1 popcorn1 popcorn1
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 08:12:41 AM
The suggestion of an Albanian handguard is really just my attempt to get as "weird" as possible. But man that would be really weird, and also VERY cool. It would also indicate a likely barrel replacement.
Enlighten me on the barrel replacement. If it's packing a Albanian handguard, nothing would really change, the gas port is in the same location, as the gas tubes are the same length between a Russian, Chinese and Albanian, only the wood is different, worst case they changed the front tube/stock ferrule and that also retains the nose of the stock, if they didn't chop off the nose..
Gas tubes are the same.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/12p8ak3mdvcosgt/SAM_1640_zpsfil38l9g.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/479lr1uqt27w2hi/SAM_1642_zpsmesjsme8.jpg?dl=0)
Russian stock vs. Albanian
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/m8xqw7lu4bcj6jx/SAM_1633_zpsnjfexipp.jpg?dl=0)
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/yz72f0sdnyxpwaj/SAM_1635_zpsm9z77cxw.jpg?dl=0)
They used a combo ferrule that does stock and gas tube.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/b5eiknp6hqo4618/SAM_1670_zpshuprdtzx.jpg?dl=0)
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 25, 2021, 07:58:16 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 25, 2021, 01:44:38 AM
I noticed the rifle in question has a Tula star stamped on bottom of receiver. Shown in OP's 4th (last pic). Is Tula star stamped at this position common on Sino Soviet too?
I don't believe that partial star stamp is a Tula star.when properly struck, though it is a 5point star, it does not resembke the Soviet Receiver Star.
That stamp in particular is most likely just another inspection stamp in the Soviet whack-a-mole inspection free for all.
Thank you for the info on Chinese SKS you provided! For discussion, I am very confident that the poorly stamped mark is a Tula star, you will see this type of partially stamped factory symbols very common on TT, SVT, Nagant M1895, and other Soviet small arms made prior to 1960. Chumak's new book on Russian small arms markings also confirmed it.
In addition, the receiver has at least one Tula unique OTK stamp.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 25, 2021, 12:44:59 PM
Enlighten me on the barrel replacement. If it's packing a Albanian handguard, nothing would really change, the gas port is in the same location, as the gas tubes are the same length between a Russian, Chinese and Albanian, only the wood is different, worst case they changed the front tube/stock ferrule and that also retains the nose of the stock, if they didn't chop off the nose..
Oops. My mistake. I got a little bit ahead of myself.
I was thinking that replacing the ferule would also mean removing the FSB and gas port. Which somehow led me to conclude that this also meant removing the barrel.
I'm going to bet that the import mark is totally incorrect and it's not a Chinese gun at all.
I still believe it is a Russian made SKS, or at least the receiver is Tula made.
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 25, 2021, 03:52:01 PM
I still believe it is a Russian made SKS, or at least the receiver is Tula made.
+1
Soviet/Russian made receiver-- is the most likely with that array of inspection stamps in those locations.
Or it could be....RM is pulling all our legs and it is 2 different SKSs he is showing pictures of.
A little early for APRIL FOOL'S day RM!!! rofl rofl rofl
Quote from: Bob_The_Student on February 25, 2021, 03:08:07 PM
I'm going to bet that the import mark is totally incorrect and it's not a Chinese gun at all.
It happens... it's my Norinco Russian.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/7y5op39kqbay9ng/SAM_0939_zpsed0685bc.jpg?dl=0)
The comments of how many country's can make the gun from in one word is simply amazing chuckles1 Oh my god rofl
One more guess.
Izhevsk sneak. Albanian stock. CHINA import stamp.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 08:52:37 AM
One more guess.
Izhevsk sneak. Albanian stock. CHINA import stamp.
Can't comment on other parts. But receiver is definitely not Izhevsk made.
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 09:49:34 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 08:52:37 AM
One more guess.
Izhevsk sneak. Albanian stock. CHINA import stamp.
Can't comment on other parts. But receiver is definitely not Izhevsk made.
Interesting. Im not well versed in Izhevsk
Why not?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 10:02:57 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 09:49:34 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 08:52:37 AM
One more guess.
Izhevsk sneak. Albanian stock. CHINA import stamp.
Can't comment on other parts. But receiver is definitely not Izhevsk made.
Interesting. Im not well versed in Izhevsk
Why not?
As I mentioned before, multiple inspection/QC proof marks and the factory symbol are unique to Factory 536 (Tula).
Ah. Interesting. thumb1
Aside from serial number fonts, the only discernible difference i was aware of between Tula and Izhevsk (barreled) receivers was the orientation of the 4digit numbers on the barrel lugs.
(Tula numbers are perpendicular and Izhevsk numbers are parallel to the barrel axis.)
I would add, though, that I do not believe the partial 5point star inspection stamp, below the wood is Tula specific.
The only discussion I've seen on this topic, suggests that it is another of many types of inspection stamps.
Is there evidence to the contrary?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 10:14:29 AM
Ah. Interesting. thumb1
Aside from serial number fonts, the only discernible difference i was aware of between Tula and Izhevsk (barreled) receivers was the orientation of the 4digit numbers on the barrel lugs.
(Tula numbers are perpendicular and Izhevsk numbers are parallel to the barrel axis.)
I would add, though, that I do not believe the partial 5point star inspection stamp, below the wood is Tula speicific.
I respect your opinion. However, I would say, if you have worked on Tokarev rifles, TT pistols, and Nagant M1895 revolvers, that Star factory symbol is very easy to recognize. In addition, (1) so far, no observed/reported Russian/Soviet small arms QC inspection marks are in such a 5-point star shape; (2) the way how and the location where this factory symbol is stamped on this SKS receiver is very similar to the practice Russians used on SVT-40.
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:32:37 AM
I respect your opinion. However, I would say, if you have worked on Tokarev rifles, TT pistols, and Nagant M1895 revolvers, that Star factory symbol is very easy to recognize. In addition, (1) so far, no observed/reported Russian/Soviet small arms QC inspection marks are in such a 5-point star shape; (2) the way how and the location where this factory symbol is stamped on this SKS receiver is very similar to the practice Russians used on SVT-40.
This is very interesting. Thanks.
These below the wood 5 point stars never appear on
any Izhevsk SVTs, Nagants, TT's or Mosins?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:32:37 AM
I respect your opinion. However, I would say, if you have worked on Tokarev rifles, TT pistols, and Nagant M1895 revolvers, that Star factory symbol is very easy to recognize. In addition, (1) so far, no observed/reported Russian/Soviet small arms QC inspection marks are in such a 5-point star shape; (2) the way how and the location where this factory symbol is stamped on this SKS receiver is very similar to the practice Russians used on SVT-40.
This is very interesting. Thanks.
These below the wood 5 point stars never appear on any Izhevsk SVTs, Nagants, TT's or Mosins?
No. And personally I have thoroughly inspected small parts on my multiple non-refurb original finish and all matching Tula and Izhevsk made SVT-40/SVT-38, Tula and Izhevsk made TT, and Tula and Izhevsk made Nagant M1895. Izhevsk made weapons (including Makarov) do not have this unique factory symbol.
I do not have non-refurb Mosins in my collection. But to my best knowledge, no one has seen such Star on Izhevsk made Mosins.
I also must add that factory designation numbers may be different or change over the time (very often they are indeed completely different factories), although we just generalized to call them either Tula or Izhevsk (e.g. so call Tula Factory producing SVT was NKV 314 (evacuated from Tula to Mednogorsk at the end of 1941, a new Tula factory (NKV 536) was established at Tula in 1942 to produce Mosins), but the Tula factory that made SKS was MV 536, but somehow they did share secondary factory symbol, which is the unique Tula star).
RM's op photo with a very similar photo of the receiver marks on my Soviet Sino
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/59iw7gz72py4fix/31074xx-receiver-bottoma.jpg?dl=0)(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/t62rtovcnaszmfm/SAM_0956a.JPG?dl=0)
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:32:37 AM
I respect your opinion. However, I would say, if you have worked on Tokarev rifles, TT pistols, and Nagant M1895 revolvers, that Star factory symbol is very easy to recognize. In addition, (1) so far, no observed/reported Russian/Soviet small arms QC inspection marks are in such a 5-point star shape; (2) the way how and the location where this factory symbol is stamped on this SKS receiver is very similar to the practice Russians used on SVT-40.
This is very interesting. Thanks.
These below the wood 5 point stars never appear on any Izhevsk SVTs, Nagants, TT's or Mosins?
No. And personally I have thoroughly inspected small parts on my multiple non-refurb original finish and all matching Tula and Izhevsk made SVT-40/SVT-38, Tula and Izhevsk made TT, and Tula and Izhevsk made Nagant M1895. Izhevsk made weapons (including Makarov) do not have this unique factory symbol.
I do not have non-refurb Mosins in my collection. But to my best knowledge, no one has seen such Star on Izhevsk made Mosins.
I also must add that factory designation numbers may be different or change over the time (very often they are indeed completely different factories), although we just generalized to call them either Tula or Izhevsk (e.g. so call Tula Factory producing SVT was NKV 314 (evacuated from Tula to Mednogorsk at the end of 1941, a new Tula factory (NKV 536) was established at Tula in 1942 to produce Mosins), but the Tula factory that made SKS was MV 536, but somehow they did share secondary factory symbol, which is the unique Tula star).
Wow. Even without info on the mosins-- the absence of smaller star stamp on the 3 other Izhevsk made firearms makes for a substantial argument.
That's really useful information. For a long time now, I have given little to no thought to that specific stamping. SKS is my jam, everything else soviet is kinda part of a very large blind spot. Thanks for helping to fill some of it in.
And thanks, for the mini-lesson, pcke! Vey helpful.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:32:37 AM
I respect your opinion. However, I would say, if you have worked on Tokarev rifles, TT pistols, and Nagant M1895 revolvers, that Star factory symbol is very easy to recognize. In addition, (1) so far, no observed/reported Russian/Soviet small arms QC inspection marks are in such a 5-point star shape; (2) the way how and the location where this factory symbol is stamped on this SKS receiver is very similar to the practice Russians used on SVT-40.
This is very interesting. Thanks.
These below the wood 5 point stars never appear on any Izhevsk SVTs, Nagants, TT's or Mosins?
One quick but important addition. There're rare exceptions (observed and documented by Russians back to the actual production time), where you may see mixed factory symbols on a non-refurb original rifle (but generally not on a same part): (1) early 1940 Podolsk made SVT-38/SVT-40 with parts supplied by Tula and Izhevsk; (2) Dec 1941 to very early 1942 Tula (actually by NKV 314 at Mednogorsk) made SVT-40 with supplied by Izhevsk; (3) 1941 and early 1942 Tula (NKV 536) made Mosins with parts supplied by Izhevsk (in this case, barrel is stamped with both Tula and Izhevsk Primary factory symbols).
Sorry for being confusing.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 26, 2021, 11:00:29 AM
RM's op photo with a very similar photo of the receiver marks on my Soviet Sino
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/59iw7gz72py4fix/31074xx-receiver-bottoma.jpg?dl=0)(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/t62rtovcnaszmfm/SAM_0956a.JPG?dl=0)
It's almost comical how quickly the Chinese went from briefly mimicking the soviet whack-a-mole free-for-all stamping patterns with their own style of stamps to no qc stamps at all.
1956-57 ghosts have the same multiple stamp pattern, but different style stamps. Then, when the /26\ stamp appears, the inspection stamps disappear.
It's a really great piece of chronological evidence in the dating theory that most newbs and many long time collectors are not aware of.
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:32:37 AM
I respect your opinion. However, I would say, if you have worked on Tokarev rifles, TT pistols, and Nagant M1895 revolvers, that Star factory symbol is very easy to recognize. In addition, (1) so far, no observed/reported Russian/Soviet small arms QC inspection marks are in such a 5-point star shape; (2) the way how and the location where this factory symbol is stamped on this SKS receiver is very similar to the practice Russians used on SVT-40.
This is very interesting. Thanks.
These below the wood 5 point stars never appear on any Izhevsk SVTs, Nagants, TT's or Mosins?
No. And personally I have thoroughly inspected small parts on my multiple non-refurb original finish and all matching Tula and Izhevsk made SVT-40/SVT-38, Tula and Izhevsk made TT, and Tula and Izhevsk made Nagant M1895. Izhevsk made weapons (including Makarov) do not have this unique factory symbol.
I do not have non-refurb Mosins in my collection. But to my best knowledge, no one has seen such Star on Izhevsk made Mosins.
I also must add that factory designation numbers may be different or change over the time (very often they are indeed completely different factories), although we just generalized to call them either Tula or Izhevsk (e.g. so call Tula Factory producing SVT was NKV 314 (evacuated from Tula to Mednogorsk at the end of 1941, a new Tula factory (NKV 536) was established at Tula in 1942 to produce Mosins), but the Tula factory that made SKS was MV 536, but somehow they did share secondary factory symbol, which is the unique Tula star).
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1942-mosin-with-both-tula-and-izhevsk-stamps.333855/
(https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/odd-tula-169x300-jpg.708148/)
Has anyone seen or heard from RM?
I thought he was going to post the "weird" photos two days ago.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 26, 2021, 11:13:16 AM
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1942-mosin-with-both-tula-and-izhevsk-stamps.333855/
(https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/odd-tula-169x300-jpg.708148/)
insert brain melting emoji, here:
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 11:16:14 AM
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 26, 2021, 11:13:16 AM
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1942-mosin-with-both-tula-and-izhevsk-stamps.333855/
(https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/odd-tula-169x300-jpg.708148/)
insert brain melting emoji, here:
chuckles1 I admit, I'm a Mosin guy...everything else Soviet is kinda part of a very huge blind spot for me. rofl2 Mosins.... expect the unexpected. thumb1
That's why I immediately added an addition. Please see my post above.
Quote from: Greasemonkey on February 26, 2021, 11:13:16 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:55:13 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 10:41:27 AM
Quote from: pcke2000 on February 26, 2021, 10:32:37 AM
I respect your opinion. However, I would say, if you have worked on Tokarev rifles, TT pistols, and Nagant M1895 revolvers, that Star factory symbol is very easy to recognize. In addition, (1) so far, no observed/reported Russian/Soviet small arms QC inspection marks are in such a 5-point star shape; (2) the way how and the location where this factory symbol is stamped on this SKS receiver is very similar to the practice Russians used on SVT-40.
This is very interesting. Thanks.
These below the wood 5 point stars never appear on any Izhevsk SVTs, Nagants, TT's or Mosins?
No. And personally I have thoroughly inspected small parts on my multiple non-refurb original finish and all matching Tula and Izhevsk made SVT-40/SVT-38, Tula and Izhevsk made TT, and Tula and Izhevsk made Nagant M1895. Izhevsk made weapons (including Makarov) do not have this unique factory symbol.
I do not have non-refurb Mosins in my collection. But to my best knowledge, no one has seen such Star on Izhevsk made Mosins.
I also must add that factory designation numbers may be different or change over the time (very often they are indeed completely different factories), although we just generalized to call them either Tula or Izhevsk (e.g. so call Tula Factory producing SVT was NKV 314 (evacuated from Tula to Mednogorsk at the end of 1941, a new Tula factory (NKV 536) was established at Tula in 1942 to produce Mosins), but the Tula factory that made SKS was MV 536, but somehow they did share secondary factory symbol, which is the unique Tula star).
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/1942-mosin-with-both-tula-and-izhevsk-stamps.333855/
(https://www.gunboards.com/attachments/odd-tula-169x300-jpg.708148/)
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 26, 2021, 11:13:49 AM
Has anyone seen or heard from RM?
I thought he was going to post the "weird" photos two days ago.
It's possible that he dropped this here to see what stewed over Lent. Sometimes he gives up the board for it....I looked it up, but it seemed if that was the case, this post originated a week into it.
I heard RM was banned to post on this thread by the new admins 105,000th executive order since taking office. So we likely won't know for maybe 4 yrs until the "fair elections" are back. I heard this on MSM so it has to be true. Besplode
Don't let that stop the speculations though. I can't wait to find out this is a...
Quote from: Bob_The_Student on February 27, 2021, 12:26:52 AM
I heard RM was banned to post on this thread by the new admins 105,000th executive order since taking office. So we likely won't know for maybe 4 yrs until the "fair elections" are back. I heard this on MSM so it has to be true. Besplode
Don't let that stop the speculations though. I can't wait to find out this is a...
rofl
He sure is drawing out the suspense on this one bat1 chuckles1
Staying tuned!
He's letting out the drag on his fishing reel... popcorn1
Should we be worried?
When RM posted on the 23rd, he said he would be posting the rest of the photos "tomorrow" or the 24th. That was three days ago.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 27, 2021, 10:41:28 PM
Should we be worried?
When RM posted on the 23rd, he said he would be posting the rest of the photos "tomorrow" or the 24th. That was three days ago.
Naw.... it's his flair for the dramatic. thumb1
Laff Sorry guys, life got busy. Was out of town w/o net access for a couple days.
So back to the specimen under observation, this one should help quite a bit:
(https://i.ibb.co/y8Bw6TC/31074xx-arsenal-stamp-star.jpg)
Well slap me on the a$$ and call me Sadie.. :o a multi national SKS
Im not sure this new photo helps much. But it sure is interesting. What it does do however is raise a lot more questions.
Looks like a 1957-1960/61 production
Serial number range? Long lug or short?
Will we have to wait a bit longer for more fotos?
Also, welcome back!
Is there a 4 digit number to the left of that /26\?
If so, it all makes sense and would appear that the early Chinese rifles with the star on the side were refurbished into later production and can produce some results like this.
This one appearing to have spent some time in Albania post refurb as well.
Thoughts? think1
Unfortunately this next one is the last photo I have but it does give some insight into this one. As I said, this is from an entry into the survey and while he uploaded some great photos and asked good questions, he left no email so I can't contact him to ask my questions or get additional info.
(https://i.ibb.co/420tDvv/31074xx-receiver.jpg)
Wish I had more for you guys, but we'll have to make due with this. I have another gun in my files that is very close to this S/N range...but hell if I can find it right now. I will find and post as soon as I do find it...
Bizarre. Just a Tula receiver that was dropped behind the milling machine in 1956 and discovered in 1958 on Arsenal clean-up day before a high party official came for a visit rofl
Yep. That's definitely a weird one.
RM- I've got this one about 9k further down the line-- serial number 3197171:
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/3mil-type-56-hold-out-from-the-century-arms-cache-from-arsenal-twenty-five.621418/
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 28, 2021, 12:27:43 AM
Yep. That's definitely a weird one.
RM- I've got this one about 9k further down the line-- serial number 3197171:
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/3mil-type-56-hold-out-from-the-century-arms-cache-from-arsenal-twenty-five.621418/
Nice, I have that one catalogued (from a 'Sir Plus Guns' gunbroker auction o 11/6/16 mind you), but it's not the one I'm thinking of. The one I'm thinking of is a 31XXXXX gun with the end of the S/N obliterating the /26\ stamp. Almost as if they tacked on some digits to an original number that would have lined up really well o the receiver. It appears I don't have it on this laptop, it must be on my CPU at work as I know I saw it last week and made a mental note to post it with the receiver photo of this one. I'm usually good about sync'ing the two, but apparently missed this one, D'oh! chuckles1
I'm wondering if this gives any credence to the notion that the letter rifles (or at least the receivers) were manufactured prior to 1956.
The story -- as I've heard it related on at least two other sks forums-- is that Tula shut down sks production in late 1955. And the 1956-1958 letter guns were assembled at smaller facilities from ☆ receivers built prior to 1956.
3mil sn.... Hmm.
Now seems to me more likely it was like P32 said and a leftover that ended up being used a few years later, but why?
Certainly an odd ball....
I must say RM, these games of 'guess that sks' are a good time and gets me going down trails I might not l look at before thumb1
Interesting beast... thumb1 a Russian receiver finished by the Chinese and restocked by the Albanians, a true door knob SKS...everybody got a turn chuckles1
Here's the actual survey entry for those that might be interested.
(Note that there is no identifying info on these with respect to the person entering the info, just the data. About as anonymous as you can be on the 'net these days.) thumb1
(https://i.ibb.co/c8SFnVb/31074xx-survey1.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/MnVK8qB/31074xx-survey2.jpg)
Quote from: running-man on February 28, 2021, 12:34:23 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 28, 2021, 12:27:43 AM
Yep. That's definitely a weird one.
RM- I've got this one about 9k further down the line-- serial number 3197171:
https://www.gunboards.com/threads/3mil-type-56-hold-out-from-the-century-arms-cache-from-arsenal-twenty-five.621418/
Nice, I have that one catalogued (from a 'Sir Plus Guns' gunbroker auction o 11/6/16 mind you), but it's not the one I'm thinking of. The one I'm thinking of is a 31XXXXX gun with the end of the S/N obliterating the /26\ stamp. Almost as if they tacked on some digits to an original number that would have lined up really well o the receiver. It appears I don't have it on this laptop, it must be on my CPU at work as I know I saw it last week and made a mental note to post it with the receiver photo of this one. I'm usually good about sync'ing the two, but apparently missed this one, D'oh! chuckles1
It's funny you say this (i.e. highlighted text), as it suggests that receivers were arsenal stamped before serial stamping. Perhaps the OP carbine is of a similar ilk-- an arsenal stamped blank that ended up in China before it could become a Letter K carbine?
The guy who entered the info into the survey appears to be aware that there is something unique about the rifle.
My money says that he'll be back after not too long. I sure hope he shows up.
Quote from: Shoot The Refurbs on February 28, 2021, 12:38:35 AM
3mil sn.... Hmm.
Now seems to me more likely it was like P32 said and a leftover that ended up being used a few years later, but why?
Certainly an odd ball....
1958 production was ~110,000 fewer guns than 1957 production-- when the expectation ought to have been at least as many as the previous year. If not more.
It's possible that the Chinese had to turn to the Soviets for barreled receivers.
Hmmm.... what was going on in China at the time that might have caused such a drastic drop in production?
All this hoopla over a Russinese Non-Lettered Starred SKS?! Like we haven't seen... nea1
I'm calling this the best cliffhanger thread this month!
I think we can all agree this is the holiest of holy grails we have seen in a few weeks!
Seriously, I hope more information comes into the files, the survey or the owner joins, and we can probe him like an Area 51 alien, so we can get some more definitive answers. I'm with P32 and co. theory for now.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 28, 2021, 12:54:38 AM
Quote from: Shoot The Refurbs on February 28, 2021, 12:38:35 AM
3mil sn.... Hmm.
Now seems to me more likely it was like P32 said and a leftover that ended up being used a few years later, but why?
Certainly an odd ball....
1958 production was ~110,000 fewer guns than 1957 production-- when the expectation ought to have been at least as many as the previous year. If not more.
It's possible that the Chinese had to turn to the Soviets for barreled receivers.
Hmmm.... what was going on in China at the time that might have caused such a drastic drop in production?
Korea was over, the French had left Indo-China, independence struggles from Britain in the Empire hadn't gotten into full swing yet, and the US hadn't gotten started in VN so they didn't have any wars to feed.
Quote from: Greatguns on February 28, 2021, 08:52:48 AM
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 28, 2021, 12:54:38 AM
1958 production was ~110,000 fewer guns than 1957 production-- when the expectation ought to have been at least as many as the previous year. If not more.
It's possible that the Chinese had to turn to the Soviets for barreled receivers.
Hmmm.... what was going on in China at the time that might have caused such a drastic drop in production?
Korea was over, the French had left Indo-China, independence struggles from Britain in the Empire hadn't gotten into full swing yet, and the US hadn't gotten started in VN so they didn't have any wars to feed.
It was actually a rhetorical question. 1958 marked the beginning of Mao's 2nd Five year plan. It was also the onset of the self-induced three year famine and resulting near total economic and industrial collapse.
Upward estimates put the death toll at 60 million.
If we look at the serial data, production from 1959 thru 1961 fell sharply. IMHO, production numbers fell significantly enough to indicate that type 56 production slowed to a crawl, or very possibly came to a halt for up to a year. Similar serial number aberrations are seen with the Type 53 mosins, and Type54 TT pistols during this time frame. My guess is the the AK type56 serial progression is no different.
Also much of the steel that China produced in this period was of too poor a quality for arms manufacturing.
Quote from: Boris Badinov on February 28, 2021, 12:54:38 AM
1958 production was ~110,000 fewer guns than 1957 production-- when the expectation ought to have been at least as many as the previous year. If not more.
My mistake.
1958 production totals were roughly the same as 1957. I was comparing the wrong yearly totals.
The drop in production was from 1959 through 1963. After 1958, yearly production averages didn't top 200,000 rifles again until 1964 / 9th year of production.
Hey Boris, I should have put emoji's after my war comment as it was intended more as a joke than anything. Sorry about that. :)
Finally found that other gun. Not as close to this one as I thought, but still a year 3 /26\.
Almost like the 3198 was already there and the rest was just an afterthought. Anyhow, interesting shenanigans going on in year 3 at Jianshe it seems.
(https://i.ibb.co/tXHHs5m/3198536-receiver.jpg)
Quote from: running-man on March 01, 2021, 04:17:15 PM
Finally found that other gun. Not as close to this one as I thought, but still a year 3 /26\.
Almost like the 3198 was already there and the rest was just an afterthought. Anyhow, interesting shenanigans going on in year 3 at Jianshe it seems.
(https://i.ibb.co/tXHHs5m/3198536-receiver.jpg)
looks like the serial number was struck too far to the right.
The serials on the OP carbine and my 3rd year linked earlier are closer to the receiver fore end.
So. is the correct answer a Soviet-Sinobanian Mongrel? ???
Quote from: Bubbazinetti on March 01, 2021, 10:51:53 PM
So. is the correct answer a Soviet-Sinobanian Mongrel? ???
SKS Type 45/56
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 01, 2021, 11:15:14 PM
Quote from: Bubbazinetti on March 01, 2021, 10:51:53 PM
So. is the correct answer a Soviet-Sinobanian Mongrel? ???
SKS Type 45/56
Bummer, I figured on a more catchy name.. like super secret... sneak.. :)
SaSKSwatch?
Quote from: Boris Badinov on March 02, 2021, 08:34:48 AM
SaSKSwatch?
Now that's a good name, well done Boris rofl rofl
He asks for "any information..." but doesn't leave or have an email address on file?