Around 4 years ago a collector who I will call Sean was looking on the Westrifle website. He saw a pristine 49 and bought it. He was pleased with the condition when it arrived. Also this was the first time he has removed stock.
https://ibb.co/album/qLpSYZ
The B on the receiver serial number looks like it was not stamped square and/or used a faulty stamp.
https://ibb.co/album/WpbDrx
Sean learned more and realized he had a early 49, the magazine did not have a rivet and that the cleaning rod nubs were equal.
https://ibb.co/album/MDPXG6
After seeing in the "1949 Tula Redux" post and the reply about the safety lever knurls changing in early 50, he checked his. Seeing that his did not have any knurls he sent me a pictures of his. Pictures show Sean's 49, my early 50 and a 54.
https://ibb.co/album/FkZhjC
Stock on his 1949. Notice the hole drilled for the cleaning rod. It is separate from the barrel cutout.
https://ibb.co/album/0QWFdF
Then Sean noticed that the magazine release did not have any knurls.
https://ibb.co/album/hY01SD
From there Sean noticed that the front sling mount was thicker than his other SKS.
https://ibb.co/album/h1FD3R
Also the op rod rather than being round was approx. 3/4 round.
https://ibb.co/album/cX1QbX
Now the question is, are the differences leftover from the 1948? We will probably never know unless additional pictures of a 1948 turn up.
Fascinating!! Thank you so much for sharing!
very nice one.
Nice pics and story - thanks for sharing! 8)
The lack of a rivet on the magazine and cleaning rod nubs equal have been seen on other 1949 SKSs. But what about the other 3 differences shown in the pictures? At inspection they might miss one or two items, but not five. I know that if there were more detailed pictures of the 1948 prototype, it would be helpful. All that we can do is wonder and take a guess. Also I am saying that it is a 1949 SKS, but it may have retained some features of the 1948 SKS.
I think the SKS being mentioned is a training rifle. The parts not being finished was to save a labor.
And the push rod being flat on one side was to reduce recoil, because there were training cartridges with reduced powder. The bullets were round like a ball, and I think, they were painted white.
Definitely a fantastic example of a very early SKS-45, with a lot of interesting features thumb1
ВГ764: The first letter В likely indicating second month of manufacture for 1949 and the second letter Г possibly being the 764th gun from the second block of 10000 in that month (after the В block of 10000). В and Г are definitely 1st and 2nd letters observed in the letter block prefixes of 1949s. The АВ prefix represents the first serial number block for 1949.
Were these early features carried over from the 1948 trials rifles? I don't know. They're certainly early features and interesting, regardless of whether or not they are 1948 or early 1949 features.
IF АВ prefix represents the first serial number block for 1949, then my AY was made before the rifle in this thread. And my SKS has all the knurls and fully round push rod.
Quote from: jaroslav on April 26, 2021, 08:01:01 PM
IF АВ prefix represents the first serial number block for 1949, then my AY was made before the rifle in this thread. And my SKS has all the knurls and fully round push rod.
Yes, АУ should be late first month production, so both are very close chronologically. If that's the case, either your АУ or this ВГ has replacement parts, or they were transitioning between those early parts and the later ones and pulling whatever was in the parts bins.
Now, this is only my thoughts and there is no proof of what I am thinking, but think about it. Now management says produce 10,000 rifles per month. Well one part of plant is assembling triggers, receiver covers(engraving), bolts and barrels. Now when it comes to assembly, all parts have to be hand stamped or engraved. Would one assembly line be able to meet production, probably not. Now if there were 5, 10, 15, 20 or more then it would be possible. What I am thinking is that if there were parts that were made, but they knew were outdated, they would use them up and then upgrade. Now would they tell all the assembly lines to use up existing parts and then use the newer parts or would they say #1-#19 production lines use newer parts and #20 production line to use outdated parts until they are used up. Like I said, my thoughts only. I thought about this when discussions about the spike bayonet used in early 1950.
Quote from: Phosphorus32 on April 26, 2021, 09:18:53 PM
Quote from: jaroslav on April 26, 2021, 08:01:01 PM
IF АВ prefix represents the first serial number block for 1949, then my AY was made before the rifle in this thread. And my SKS has all the knurls and fully round push rod.
Yes, АУ should be late first month production, so both are very close chronologically. If that's the case, either your АУ or this ВГ has replacement parts, or they were transitioning between those early parts and the later ones and pulling whatever was in the parts bins.
Another option in that АУ (or any of the other A[ ] prefixed '49s) and ВГ were not fabricated in alphabetical order. We see this in the '56 transitional rifles with KP being the first made (with '55, then no date star, then blank covers in a clear progression) even though prefixes ГА, ИБ, ИР, КА, etc. exist from that year. Hard to say whether the '49s more closely resembled the pre WWII Mosin and SVT-40 serial number prefixes in that they had an alphabetical pattern or that the Russians, in their mistrust of the west after WWII and the true onset of the Cold War, scrambled their nomenclature patterns at the onset of SKS production to throw off external countries from being able to count/track their 'new' weapons. We know that they tried to keep the SKS a secret as long as possible, with the west not even seeing one in the wild until 1954:
(https://i.ibb.co/BgLpjgf/CIA-SKS-production.jpg)
I honestly think this one could go either way just like the spike bayo '50 that jstin has. It's an 'odd' gun for certain, but again it's hard to make any definitive conclusions based on a sample size of one. Maybe a few more ВГ's will turn up and we can identify a pattern. thumb1
Quote: " Hard to say whether the '49s more closely resembled the pre WWII Mosin and SVT-40 serial number prefixes in that they had an alphabetical pattern".
I think they did. Stalin wouldn't change the old system, but he died in 1953.
Khrushchev took over and being sneaky, changed the registry to fool the West.
I have to agree with running-man about the serial numbers. Who knows for sure how they wanted us westerners to know. Now in my post about 1950 transitions, I have documented the transitions of the 50. Now how does that figure in the dates required? With Sean's 49, is it a early production or was it done on a specific assembly line? And as a matter of fact, how many other 49's have 5 different features? I would also mention that although Sean owned this rifle for 4 years, he only took a closer look at it after the mention of the difference knurls on the safety lever. If you think about it there are thousands of sks in Canada. Now most owners have the run of the mill sks, but there could be several safe queens . Time will tell.....
Quote: And as a matter of fact, how many other 49's have 5 different features?
Not 5, only 4. You show the hole for the cleaning rod on a stock with a BLADE bayo vs a stock for a SPIKE bayo.
I think the other 4 are not machined. Some one assembled the SKS from a non finished parts.
This is a Westrifle out of the great white north?
Please correct me if I'm mistaken but haven't they been literally been caught red handed altering 1949 SKS's in the past?
https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=4377.msg49218#msg49218
jaroslav - The parts were machined, but not finished. The knurls were not machined on the safety and magazine release. Why? The front sling mount being thicker than later rifles. Why? The push rod was machined to approx. 2/3 round and is stamped. As far as the stock, the hole is in the spike stock(one on the right). Stock ferrule for a spike is smaller than the ferrule for a blade. Why is the hole drilled and not the normal channel for the cleaning rod?
I added pictures of my spike stock and a blade stock. It shows clearly the differences. And yes, it is a replacement laminate stock. Spike stock on the left.
https://ibb.co/gJYOew
Quote from: Shoot The Refurbs on April 30, 2021, 01:53:27 AM
This is a Westrifle out of the great white north?
Please correct me if I'm mistaken but haven't they been literally been caught red handed altering 1949 SKS's in the past?
https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=4377.msg49218#msg49218
To be clear, it was a WR SKS, but there is no proof that WR played a part in humping that particular gun.
The fact that a WR SKS is often somehow involved when a humped gun turns up is a definite trend and is problematic to me though. Something is going on there, but no there is no direct evidence of WR humping guns themselves. Having said that, I use zero WR guns for any of my data collection w/o first labeling them as WR guns. They are too suspect in my opinion to make definitive judgements on their own (if I can pool them with other non-suspect guns then that's great), and I don't want to corrupt the data.
My statment from that thread remains true though:
Quote from: https://clone.sks-files.com/index.php?topic=4377.msg49218#msg49218We have a member here who was fond of saying "This gun gives me the heebie-jeebies" - this gun does indeed give me the heebie-jeebies. It is clear to me that I can now make this statement with 100% certainty:
"Someone in Canada right now has a Tula star stock cartouche stamp, a 1949Г stamp, the ability to sand and refinish a stock to make it appear to be something that it isn't, and they are actively doing this to SKS45s there right now."
I've been keeping track of Canadian guns that have better than expected '49 cartouches. You'd be surprised how crappy most '49 cartouches look if they are even there at all since most stocks are replacements. When you see a group of them together, you can play the Seasme Street game "One of these things is not like the other" quite easily to pick them out...
Even though Westrifle has been shown to have sold rifles that has been modified, I think that each rifle should be judged individually. If there is a question of altering or modification, more pictures should be asked for. In the case of my 50, I supplied any pictures that were asked for and I am sure Sean will do the same.
I have asked Sean for some more pictures. Still receiving additional pictures, but here are some for you to check out.
https://ibb.co/album/JW7XnG
Here are some pictures of the inspection stamps. I will have the last set of pictures ready later today.
https://ibb.co/album/mSZZ8X
As with the other oddities found on this SKS, here is another one of the five that may have never been seen before.
1- Hole for cleaning rod instead of channel
2- Stock is filed down where it fits into stock ferrule.
3- Cracking is evident by stock ferrule which may account for many stocks being replaced.
4- Although the stock has a hole drilled for the cleaning rod, it opens up to form a channel. Tula may have found that it was easier to cut a channel the whole length rather than drilling a hole.
Now this 49 may be one of a kind and another one may take years to show, you can't argue with the pictures.
https://ibb.co/album/0KBKSH
If there was more information of the 1948 SKS, we may say that this was a early transitional 1949, but there isn't. In the same token, explain why the features on Sean's SKS are different from other 1949s? One or two differences - maybe, but five. No knurls on safety lever and magazine release - slippery when wet. Sling mount wider - weight reduction. Push rod cut out - time and cost plus stupid idea(I think). Drill hole in stock for cleaning rod- easier and faster to cut a channel than drill a hole. What are your opinions? I also know first hand that one of a kind does not make it so, but you can't argue with the facts(pictures)? Also if you require additional pictures, I can ask for them and post.
I came across an SKS stock with a serial that's just few hundred earlier. This is from one of those foreign sites, so zero chance of WR messing it up. The cartouches look similar to me, although the resolution is low.
(https://i.ibb.co/DpLjzvn/IMG-5365.jpg) (https://ibb.co/GTFrn8j)
(https://i.ibb.co/cXc3Mfg/IMG-5374.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PzZj3Xm)
(https://i.ibb.co/kh7tdmg/IMG-5373.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nDGFWPs)
(https://i.ibb.co/yhwXDRv/IMG-5372.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tZ74Shj)
(https://i.ibb.co/XCk0GPv/IMG-5371.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tJPj16W)
(https://i.ibb.co/HgvWJ6r/IMG-5370.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vz57tpJ)
(https://i.ibb.co/rFPK1Ng/IMG-5369.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fqRVPLb)
(https://i.ibb.co/8xjdZS8/IMG-5368.jpg) (https://ibb.co/qgRWQP1)
(https://i.ibb.co/sHKMp1D/IMG-5367.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bJs8jvy)
(https://i.ibb.co/0cFBYzj/IMG-5366.jpg) (https://ibb.co/c1Cb2sc)
(https://i.ibb.co/Xtdp1rr/IMG-5364.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kXr0jss)
(https://i.ibb.co/1vJ1qxf/IMG-5363.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Lkhmtfz)
Quote from: Cz315 on January 23, 2022, 02:35:36 PM
I came across a stock of an SKS with a serial that's just few hundred earlier. This is from one of foreign sites, so zero chance of WR messing it up. The cartouches look similar to me, although the resolution is low.
I would have concerns with the toe splice on an 'original' early, especially 1949 stock.
You think it was restamped? It went for less than $20. Doubt anyone would bother there.
If you don't mind, could you please post a link to the sale? Thank you.
Quote from: pcke2000 on January 23, 2022, 05:13:04 PM
If you don't mind, could you please post a link to the sale? Thank you.
PM sent
Too bad the cleaning rod channel is not shown. On Sean's, it shows the cleaning rod channel is made by drilling a hole in stock.
Apparently the same seller sold another one like this about a year ago. God bless the Internet that doesn't forget anything. This one has the pics of the bayonet groove/hole/channel thumb1
(https://i.ibb.co/2WFSp7D/IMG-20200209-144730.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kb5D8jM)
(https://i.ibb.co/4fQgqpv/IMG-20200209-144906.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cvmXBQf)
(https://i.ibb.co/5WL4PyC/IMG-20200209-144853.jpg) (https://ibb.co/3ycdnqV)
(https://i.ibb.co/nw7fp4k/IMG-20200209-144840.jpg) (https://ibb.co/K527nBy)
(https://i.ibb.co/7b57rsJ/IMG-20200209-144831.jpg) (https://ibb.co/52yqsbW)
(https://i.ibb.co/gDHNjzM/IMG-20200209-144825.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0f8TDhj)
(https://i.ibb.co/QnTdjNZ/IMG-20200209-144819.jpg) (https://ibb.co/82fc45J)
(https://i.ibb.co/9bZ3WQS/IMG-20200209-144758.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8rY491t)
And another one with a hole, this one is a refurb. Mods, please separate the thread if I'm putting too much useless stuff here.
(https://i.ibb.co/5WmsMz2/IMG-4805.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Z65cLwN)
(https://i.ibb.co/j600nXX/IMG-4804.jpg) (https://ibb.co/98KKQ55)
(https://i.ibb.co/b3vYDHR/IMG-4803.jpg) (https://ibb.co/26MRH8Y)
(https://i.ibb.co/hyKFwGQ/IMG-4802.jpg) (https://ibb.co/47jR3bv)
(https://i.ibb.co/178pZh9/IMG-4801.jpg) (https://ibb.co/djG3B1Q)
(https://i.ibb.co/d2WwGgs/IMG-4800.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zRnTGJW)
(https://i.ibb.co/WySWxdp/IMG-4799.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1qHfvpJ)
I think that these additional pictures prove that drilling the cleaning rod channel was done on early 49's.
Quote from: jstin2 on January 23, 2022, 07:29:47 PM
I think that these additional pictures prove that drilling the cleaning rod channel was done on early 49's.
jstin2, do you fully believe these stocks were originally made for the spike bayonet?
What makes you think that they were not? Pictures do not lie.
I have posted that the cleaning rod hole, due to the fact that it was drilled and not having a channel showed that it was a early trait of a 1949. But since then, I believe that it was only someone not finishing the stock. I believe this, as my early 1950 - ИM 3 has a similar stock trait. Then Boris Badinov showed pictures of a 1952 stock that he had purchased. This also showed a drilled cleaning rod hole. Only a guess is that in the production line that the stocks were drilled first, then the remaining wood was removed. And some stocks were not finished, as in the case of Sean's, mine and Boris's. Other examples have also been shown in this post. But there are the other factors that show that Sean's rifle is a early 49.
This 49 SKS shows several traits of an early build. Before this, I only thought that if there was no rivet on the magazine, cleaning rod nubs being parallel and if there was a 1 in the serial number, that they were sans serif. I have noticed several other features since then.
1 - Magazine without a rivet.
(https://i.ibb.co/pK0Dsfb/20210403-144500.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DMVX69z)
2 - Cleaning rod nubs are parallel.
(https://i.ibb.co/frBdryz/IMG-2030.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BTd2TQ5)
3 - If there is a 1 in the serial number they are all sans serif. Although Sean's does not have a 1, an example of mine is shown.
(https://i.ibb.co/WzdVzdF/IMG-1533.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7pTkpTV)
New observations.
4 - No knurls on magazine release and safety lever.
(https://i.ibb.co/vs2HbSK/IMG-2021.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rbnmgV1)
(https://i.ibb.co/K5NJ3qw/IMG-2022.jpg) (https://ibb.co/hgXStWf)
5 - Sling bracket is wider than later SKS. Will show comparison.
(https://i.ibb.co/rvtSM41/IMG-1989.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JCd425M)
(https://i.ibb.co/tM1522C/IMG-2062.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MDJL11N)
6 - Op rod is beveled on 2 sides and has a OTK marking.
(https://i.ibb.co/zsC5Sqn/IMG-1994.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kKzyhNH)
(https://i.ibb.co/Lk96L8N/IMG-2004.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)
7 - Stock trap door and comparison
(https://i.ibb.co/jRHLHqp/IMG-1967.jpg) (https://ibb.co/gV6D6Qn)
(https://i.ibb.co/QKyZkN9/IMG-1970.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DR0NYC4)
(https://i.ibb.co/ZJVMDK6/IMG-2036.jpg) (https://ibb.co/596RHvW)
8 - No marking on the front sight.
(https://i.ibb.co/Sn7K9sg/20230903-194203.jpg) (https://ibb.co/58x5fM3)
Other than missing the knurls on the safety lever and magazine release plus the wider sling mount, my ЮE 1217 has all the other features.